Would you buy a grade 2 listed cottage?

[RobinBHM]

Someone said something about finding out what the Listing covers. Don't bother. It covers everything within the curtilage of the building. Absolutely invariably.......every single time

I hear this urban myth all the time, “it’s only that wall that’s listed” or “the outbuildings aren’t listed”

As you say, it’s the cartilage every time

 

[AJB Temple]

I'm not sure but I think Mike possibly misunderstood a remark of mine, and this ^ has perpetuated it.

To be clear I said, or intended to convey, it may be worth finding out WHY the building was listed. Buildings are listed for all sorts of reasons and it is worth discussing this with the CO or local historical society if there is one. It can give a significant and useful clue to what the COs attitude is likely to be towards restoration of the building and any alterations you plan to make. This is based on personal experience in Surrey and West Sussex, but of course is not the same as extensive experience from an architect specialising in the field. Nor Jacobs's massive expertise on everything.

In the case of the very large GII we bought, we had a pretty full discussion with the CO and local authority generally before we exchanged contracts. I was running and financing a development company at the time and the building was being sold by another developer (potential red flag). The LA actually wanted the building developed rather than continue to decay as offices with a lot of traffic in an out close to a new build estate. The CO was fixated on a few particular things but was very relaxed about pretty much everything we (advised by architect and SE) wanted to do. We only fell out over one thing, and that was 100% our fault as the building supervisor got the build team put in a stone circular window on a side wall without CO consent to relieve an otherwise dark new hall & WC. Luckily I was able to smooth that over. It's often about relationships. Conservation is important and part of our heritage. Buildings have to be fit for purpose as well.

 

[Ozi]

I own a flat that's grade 2 the only issue I have had is that Wellingborough council are obsessed with the windows. I would like to fit double glazed visually identical UPVC to improve the efficiency, they tell me I cannot. Why the old work house / hospital was listed in the first place I have no idea but that aside it's no hassle. as has been said above the structure of the building is critical with G2 if you are not going to change the exterior no problem. Although you may have to get this through to your local Gestapo.

I can commend Wellingborough council for their employment policy which does not discriminate against people with single figure IQs

 

[woodieallen]

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/map-search Is your Go-To to see why a property is listed

 

[RonnieI]

Our previous next door neighbour was a well respected architect (who'd written books on the subject and lectured at the University). His take was that planning officers, and especially conservation officers, we're failed architects with a huge chip on their shoulder. We lived in a 14th century rectory (split as a semi, we had 1/3, they had 2/3). It was grade 2* listed and the staircase in his side was grade 1. It was a real pain to live in.

 

[RonnieI]

I own a flat that's grade 2 the only issue I have had is that Wellingborough council are obsessed with the windows. I would like to fit double glazed visually identical UPVC to improve the efficiency, they tell me I cannot. Why the old work house / hospital was listed in the first place I have no idea but that aside it's no hassle. as has been said above the structure of the building is critical with G2 if you are not going to change the exterior no problem. Although you may have to get this through to your local Gestapo.

I can commend Wellingborough council for their employment policy which does not discriminate against people with single figure IQs

What I don't understand is that a new build has to be insulated to the nth degree with windows that are sealed tight in order to comply with building regs. A listed building? All this goes out of the window and you have windows, that are as effective at keeping wind out and heat in as an open door. The system is frankly bloody stupid.
Grenfell I guess highlighted the idiocy involved in planning and building.

 

[RonnieI]

Out of ignorance say and abandoned listed 11 dwelling won't sell and just sits there with no attention and further decays to the point of demolition due to costs for repairs which scare buyers away, What has been achieved with the heavy regulations.

The owner usually gets compliance notices to make good before that. Then the merry go round starts.

 

[Ozi]

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/map-search Is your Go-To to see why a property is listed

but why? It's an old workhouse. They ranged from prisons to dispose of poor people to cottage hospital / old folks home depending on humanity of those running them. This was nearer the hospital end of the scale so readily converted to flats. But it's a red brick Victorian building some parts of which have iron window frames (not my flat) what possible interest?

 

[woodieallen]

View attachment 189325but why? It's an old workhouse. They ranged from prisons to dispose of poor people to cottage hospital / old folks home depending on humanity of those running them. This was nearer the hospital end of the scale so readily converted to flats. But it's a red brick Victorian building some parts of which have iron window frames (not my flat) what possible interest?

Look it up on that site I gave. That will tell you.

 

[Krome10]

I live in an old house, not listed, and have never had a listed property. My knee jerk has always been to avoid them, for the same kind of reasons that the nay sayers have expressed in this thread. Having read through the thread, I think I would still have major reservations.

However, there is another way to look at it...

If you have a passion for historic buildings, a house that is not listed can also be restrictive. Let's say you want to put in some lovely old windows, and are happy to wear an extra jumper and long johns in winter rather than have modern windows, you might not be able to as you'll need to comply with BR/FENSA. The same could be true for other things where going for the more traditional option might not satisfy current regs.

Happy to be shown to be wrong as there's people who know a lot more about the subject and have more experience than me. But wanted to add this alternative view seeing as it had not come up yet.

 

[woodieallen]

What I don't understand is that a new build has to be insulated to the nth degree with windows that are sealed tight in order to comply with building regs. A listed building? All this goes out of the window and you have windows, that are as effective at keeping wind out and heat in as an open door. The system is frankly bloody stupid.
Grenfell I guess highlighted the idiocy involved in planning and building.

It depends on your viewpoint. If they didn't have the Listing scheme then we'd lose a lot of very interesting and atractive buildings. On the other hand, if bland, boring Barratt boxes are your 'thing' then .....

 

[woodieallen]

I live in an old house, not listed, and have never had a listed property. My knee jerk has always been to avoid them, for the same kind of reasons that the nay sayers have expressed in this thread. Having read through the thread, I think I would still have major reservations.

However, there is another way to look at it...

If you have a passion for historic buildings, a house that is not listed can also be restrictive. Let's say you want to put in some lovely old windows, and are happy to wear an extra jumper and long johns in winter rather than have modern windows, you might not be able to as you'll need to comply with BR/FENSA. The same could be true for other things where going for the more traditional option might not satisfy current regs.

Happy to be shown to be wrong as there's people who know a lot more about the subject and have more experience than me. But wanted to add this alternative view seeing as it had not come up yet.

You're not wrong and bang on the money. However, it's a long time since I looked at the regs but 'back in the day' you could replace 'like-for-like'. Has that now gone ?

 

[spanner48]

I don't post here any more, but I can't let this pass without comment. Jacob, you are completely wrong. And what on earth do you think a BCO has to do with Listed Buildings?

Anyone purchasing a Listed Building is potentially liable for any changes made illegally to that property since it was listed, even if they weren't the ones who made those changes. This is the law. The solicitor who conveys the property to you will also know this, and will warn you of it during the process of purchasing........or, at least, they should. (Absolutely insist on the seller's solicitor obtaining full answers to all the questions on consents which are in the standard contract questions pack.) However, this law is seldom enforced that harshly. Local authorities tend to give new owners a chance.

I am an architect specialising in ancient and listed buildings, so this is my every-day bread-and-butter.

As to the question in the OP............yes, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to buy a Listed Building if it was the right house for me. Most of the stuff people hear about Listed Buildings is nonsense, and much of that is caused by confusion with a somewhat complex system. My number one piece of advice is to employ an experienced local conservation architect early on if you are planning any alterations, extensions, or renovation. They (we) generally save clients many times the fees we charge, because we know the rules and expectations of the council, and will provide advice as to what you might or might not do with the property, in addition to then obtaining the required permissions. Listed Buildings can be quite restrictive, but can produce wonderful homes if you ( ie your architect) can navigate the bureaucratic processes involved.

Someone said something about finding out what the Listing covers. Don't bother. It covers everything within the curtilage of the building. Absolutely invariably.......every single time.

So: a Conservation Architect recommends always to employ a Conservation Architest. No Conflict of Interest here, surely?

About as little as asking the Conservation Officer whether or not your 'Minor Repair" required his/her sanction?

 

[Blackswanwood]

So: a Conservation Architect recommends always to employ a Conservation Architest. No Conflict of Interest here, surely?

The advice was to use someone locally who is suitably experienced/qualified.

The person giving the advice isn't local, has made no secret of what his occupation is and stands to make no gain from what he's said.

There is no conflict of interest - it's just friendly advice from someone who knows what they are talking about.

 

[Ozi]

Look it up on that site I gave. That will tell you.

I did (see post 48), still not a clue. There are many more ascetic or interesting buildings not listed - just my opinion. But the windows I would like to replace are very poor quality single glazed. I'm not allowed to paint them and the people who do just paint over hangers so that my tenants cannot open them

 

[Amplidyne]

@Fitzroy has a good point, the hassle of living with a listed building depends totally on the conservation officer in your area. They can be realistic or a complete wally. Make an enemy of them at your peril. The rules state you can make minor repairs, but that’s a matter of interpretation. One persons minor is another major. Anything other than ‘minor’ needs approval. Without it you it’s a criminal offence with you potentially having to undo the work and reinstate to their specifications a large fine and if there’s ever room in prison a remote chance of a custodian sentence.

So let’s say you want to repair some timber, you should approach the local conservation officer to find out if they consider it minor. Well, they will have to visit the site to determine, they will then officially tell you what they think, which you should prepare yourself for, is that they do indeed deem it to require a full listed building consent. Why wouldn’t they? Well because they are employed to do this type of work, if nothing needs full LBC they need fewer of them! Self preservation of your job comes into play! Now, that all costs money, it’s not free, and every visit is a further drain on your finances.

So they determined you need full LBC, so you have to prepare a full work specification, detailing what timber will be used, species, possibly whether it’s air or force seasoned, what joints you will use, what glues, fillers and then treatment of the timber afterwards to protect it (some work may need be deemed requiring a specialist approved heritage tradesperson or what ever they call them these days eg lime mortar pointing can trigger this). All of which they have total control of whether they will approve or not. So there is another bill. Next they will want to inspect the work. Potentially at different stages of it being done to make sure their happy that your in compliance and it’s being done to a standard they approve of. Each visit they can pass or fail and you have to comply with their every whim. Each visit is a further cost.

So, what would have cost you say £20 to do in a modern house you can be staring down a bill of £1,000. The joys of owning a listed building!

Basically I don't want anything that means any more contact with the clipboard carriers at the council than is absolutely necessary. Just asking about some planning for a granny annexe here a few years back was a nightmare. Three different people. Three different opinions. A visit to "Cosy Nook" which is what the local council offices should be renamed, did no more to bolster my opinion of them. I worked in British Industry, I know what people "looking busy" looks like.
All in all a complete waste of my time and effort. We never had the annexe built in the end, but that's another story.

 

[Jacob]

What I don't understand is that a new build has to be insulated to the nth degree with windows that are sealed tight in order to comply with building regs. A listed building? All this goes out of the window and you have windows, that are as effective at keeping wind out and heat in as an open door. The system is frankly bloody stupid.

My last big job was a chapel conversion and we replaced all the windows with new replicas single glazed and re-used all the old glass throughout. Massive area of single glazed glass mostly 3mm or less, and it looked spectacular. Conservationists were pleased and we had several visits from other conservationists merely to have a look and see how things could be done.
Never discussed it with BCO but I think they turned a blind eye as it was obviously a good thing to do; "repair" rather than replacement, on the nod.
Got C EPC rating by virtue of masses of insulation everywhere, and a beautiful building. Not too stupid!

Grenfell I guess highlighted the idiocy involved in planning and building.

Failed system due to irresponsible government policy at the top, cascading down.
We experienced this too, in a small way. When we came to sell the place there were things not yet signed off; we had only had two visits from BCO from the start in spite of massive fee charged £1000 ish ISTR. No problem, there were no issues but the job had taken a long time.
Had to re-open the file and pay another fee £100. In the meantime the system had been privatised and it turned out the file was empty! System gone to the dogs!
Somewhat embarrassed new BCO had to be very conciliatory about retrospective approval.
All worked out for the best.
PS also got a small grant from conservation for roof job - re-using old slates and "Scottish" sarking i.e. nailed direct to sarking boards with no laths. Diminishing slates massive 36" long at the bottom ranging to 12" or less at the top. No objections from BCO. Also had to use lime mortar for pointing up the stone ridge pieces and copings. This all washed away after a few years but we had put in a lead flashing under the ridge so no problem.
Luckily no specialist architects involved at any point - we probably wouldn't have got away with the beautiful window job for a start.

 

[woodieallen]

I did (see post 48), still not a clue. There are many more ascetic or interesting buildings not listed - just my opinion. But the windows I would like to replace are very poor quality single glazed. I'm not allowed to paint them and the people who do just paint over hangers so that my tenants cannot open them

You've missed the option to see the listing details on the website, I think.

 

[woodieallen]

I saw this little gem for sale on another website. Yours for £220,000. They applied for PP to demolish and rebuild with modern and which was refused. So I'm guessing they will just let it rot unless the Council get involved as suggested by Ronniel above

 

[Geoff_S]

I saw this little gem for sale on another website. Yours for £220,000. They applied for PP to demolish and rebuild with modern and which was refused. So I'm guessing they will just let it rot unless the Council get involved as suggested by Ronniel aboveView attachment 189327

Sometimes you’ve just got to let them go.