Workshop hourly rate

[doctor Bob]

To be honest, the kiln operator probably ought to approach a yard that has a laser guided edger, like the one below, capable of ripping off both edges in one pass - each board would take about 10 - 15 seconds to rip, and I imagine a well oiled crew could process 1000 ft³ in less than a day, maybe even just half a day. Slainte.

This all day long...........

 

[D_W]

regarding Slainte's numbers, a circular mill running production here in the states (this type is now pretty much gone in favor of larger mills) would work through about 3-4000 board feet (finished lumber) per day with a 5 man crew plus a grader/marketer (that includes handling the logs, the sawyer in the seat) and someone dealing with cleaning up chips, etc). What comes to mind to me with this much lumber is all of the handling - the 3-4k figure includes trimming the planed lumber so that it has clear edges, but everything is in a line behind the mill, planing - sawing - chipping.

we *used* to have a large upholstered furniture industry in the states and they were huge consumers of lumber here in the east. most of the professional woodworkers' wage information came from that industry and it was pretty hardscrabble in amounts, but the factories were usually in hardscrabble areas in the south.

Actually, even in my town (Gettysburg) , as a kid, we had several furniture factories and a large cabinet factory the next town over. All gone. They were a good place to breathe fumes and lose your hearing (I worked in the cabinet factory between college years).

 

[MikeG.]

Hard to know how those boards were sawn. The amateurs and semi-pros over here with bandmills often sell boards like that, but those cuts could've been done on a circle mill here as cuts to make a cant, and then rotating the cant to make all flatsawn boards - that would result in some of each.

The amateurs with portable band mills leave lumber like that for obvious reasons:
* they have no easy way to remove the edges
* they like to try to charge more for the untrimmed board based on the illusion that it will have more usable lumber or that there's more there

12k board feet of untrimmed lumber is a lot. I get my wood from a one-man operation here (but he's a pro, does it for a living) and he doesn't leave lumber like that unless someone requests an entire log sawn through and through. .......

This stuff isn't milled by amateurs. It is imported by a massive concern here, who are buying from professional woodyards in the USA. It is priced between the wane (ie you don't pay for sapwood).

 

[D_W]

Am i correct that the untrimmed wood and the trimmed wood comes together?

Interesting. Much of the retailed wood here comes from coin sorter mills - almost all of it unless someone is selling "natural edge slabs".

By coin sorter, I mean the mills are automated and drop boards like a coin sorter so that they can be sold in uniform widths (which is very annoying for woods that vary by color much), thus allowing for upcharge for anything more than narrow boards.

it's common to see lumber thicker than 8/4 here retaining its live edge, but that goes back to the slab thing.

 

[D_W]

I realize that I just made a factor of 12 math error with what Richard says - two men could knock out the wood talked about here in a day (probably right). I mistook 1k cubic feet for 1k board feet.

 

[MikeG.]

Am i correct that the untrimmed wood and the trimmed wood comes together?......

No, I just picked from multiple packs. Most of those with a straight edge only had one.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I'm curious as to why this (on green lumber) hasn't been done as part of the milling process. Richard shows what's typical here - most commercial yards have a trim saw that follows the mill. If the board is planed green, it goes through the planer and then the trim saw and is stacked to air dry.

That last bit in your post is interesting because I don't recall coming across anybody in the timber and drying business that machine planes freshly milled boards prior to drying. As far as I'm aware, every mill only rips to thickness prior to drying, whether by air alone or kilned. Many also rip off the waney edges, usually as a process of the milling, as is typical in large mills in the US and elsewhere, but there are also times when the wane is left on, for example, when drying logs in boule form.

Anyway, we seem to have lost sustad, the originator of this thread somewhere down the line, so perhaps all this extra stuff about sawmill procedures and seasoning practice is now moot, ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Almost all of the seasoned oak I've ever bought has been waney edged. A lot of it was/ is American white oak.

Mike, is that oak air or kiln dried? Or to put the question another way is a waney edge a sign that it is air dried?

Sorry if it's a daft question - the comment about oak boules above just made me wonder.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... is a waney edge a sign that it is air dried?

Not necessarily, but generally it's more likely waney edged material will have been air air dried, although there are likely to be specialist small kiln operators that might choose to kiln dry waney edged material. The large commercial driers on the other hand, those that put in loads of several hundred cubic feet, or more, generally only want to dry square edged boards to enable neat stickering and greater efficiency in drying, as well as enabling in the future the creation of neatly dead stacked, wrapped, and banded packages for subsequent transport. After all, there's little point in adding expense to kiln dry boards of varying widths that don't allow for a neat square pile that inevitably creates additional air space within the kiln, plus the cost of drying material (bark and sapwood of some tree species) that's later going to be mostly or completely cut off during the manufacture of many artifacts, e.g., furniture.

I can't tell where Mike gets his American white oak, but it's interesting to see he's got a supplier somewhere because here, in the UK, I've never seen imported from North America kilned waney edged American oak for sale in any of the timber merchants I'm familiar with: it's always been square edged stuff primarily for the reasons I suggested in the first paragraph. Slainte.

 

[MikeG.]

Almost all of the seasoned oak I've ever bought has been waney edged. A lot of it was/ is American white oak.

Mike, is that oak air or kiln dried? Or to put the question another way is a waney edge a sign that it is air dried?......

It's been kilned (in America) then left in stick here. The last two batches have been over-cooked*, but nicely, the price of European oak, which I much prefer, has decreased to match the increase in AWO prices (dollar/ pound exchange rate), and so my last 2 purchases have been of European air dried stuff.

*Apart from a splintery un-cooperative nature there was also quite a bit of yellow staining.

 

[MikeG.]

.......I can't tell where Mike gets his American white oak, but it's interesting to see he's got a supplier somewhere because here, in the UK, I've never seen imported from North America kilned waney edged American oak for sale in any of the timber merchants I'm familiar with......

Thorogoods, Ardleigh (nr Colchester).

 

[RobinBHM]

I have been asked to cut the waste off of waney edged boards prior to going into a kiln. Approx. 1000 cubic feet. various widths and lengtsh. How would I price that job?

thats a job for a straight line edger

painful any other way on that qty

 

[RobinBHM]

I used to charge £40 per hr +vat for workshop rate

 

[Sgian Dubh]

.......I can't tell where Mike gets his American white oak, but it's interesting to see he's got a supplier somewhere because here, in the UK, I've never seen imported from North America kilned waney edged American oak for sale in any of the timber merchants I'm familiar with......

Thorogoods, Ardleigh (nr Colchester).

Thanks for that information, Mike. A quick look at their website suggests you've struck gold with that merchant. Slainte.

 

[John N]

Day rate is good if you have a relationship with the client and they know your workmanship and work ethic, the customer knows they are not getting overcharged and you don't have to stress about working out an exact quotation, maybe give them a ball park figure. When giving a price or setting your day rate try to base it on your overheads, tax, profit and wage you want to take from the business. This isn't always easy and comes with experience. When starting out if you slightly under charge it's not the end of the world as long as the job is successful, hopefully you will gain a repeat customer...just try not to do it too often agree with doug 71

 

[MikeG.]

.....Thanks for that information, Mike. A quick look at their website suggests you've struck gold with that merchant. Slainte.

They moved maybe 20 years ago from being 3 or 4 miles from me to being 20 miles away. I followed them. They're wonderful. I saw these oak burrs in one of their sheds last time I was there. About 7 feet tall by 5 feet wide:

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I saw these oak burrs in one of their sheds last time I was there. About 7 feet tall by 5 feet wide.

Now those could be stunning in a well thought out piece of furniture. Unfortunately, they're rather far away, and a bit on the pricey side for me to both come up with a suitable project (no inspiration at the moment), and not something I'd like to speculatively sink money and time into without the certainty of a sale, ha ha. I suspect one cause for my lack of inspiration may be that I've never really been a big fan of that genre of massive, lumpy and gnarly furniture in the vein of some of the 'stoneage' inspired stuff slathered in epoxy, such as you'd see coming out of workshops in the US back in the 1970s. Slainte.

 

[MikeG.]

......Now those could be stunning in a well thought out piece of furniture. .....a bit on the pricey side.....

They're very much open to offers on those. They've had them a few months.

I wondered about a conference table/ boardroom table, set in some ordinary oak, and maybe with some bog oak highlights. I think they're 3 or 4 inches thick (they're certainly 2" plus), so they could be sliced up into veneers on a Woodmiser-type travelling bandsaw. With a bit of imagination I can see them yielding 3 or 4 massive projects. Somebody will probably just drown them in epoxy, though..........

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I wondered about a conference table/ boardroom table, set in some ordinary oak, and maybe with some bog oak highlights. I think they're 3 or 4 inches thick (they're certainly 2" plus), so they could be sliced up into veneers on a Woodmiser-type travelling bandsaw. With a bit of imagination I can see them yielding 3 or 4 massive projects. Somebody will probably just drown them in epoxy, though..........

Those are all possibilities, I agree. But more likely, as you say, to end up as some sort of big lumpy Stonehenge inspired coffee table, or similar, well slathered in epoxy, but possibly with the now almost obligatory addition of a bit of 'rivering', perhaps in turquoise, red, or maybe green. Slainte.