Workshop floor....

[TornUp]

Hi Guys...

first of all, i hope this is on the right board!? please feel free to move if its not....

So I am soon about to embark on a magical journey of creating my OWN(no longer shared with my dad!) workshop! and I will be looking for advice at most legs of this long journey! heh.

First stop? my floor.... im still unsure how my workshop is going to go up from the floor, cant decide on of im going to buy a shed(any one any experience on this: http://www.tigersheds.com/product_detai ... option=441) or if i am going to build it myself(i know.... big task! ) what i am set in stone with is the size, biggest as possible! my partner has restricted me to a size of 10ft(ish) buy 20ft(i can't take up any more lenth in our garden then this!!)

but as i mentioned, my first stop is the floor.... Im thinking of dropping fence posts(75mm or 100mm??) into holes and securing with some sort of concrete postmix (http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/221100) and then at the end of each post attaching a long post across the top(with a support post in the middle! so somthing like this:
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
| | | | | |
| | | | | |

with maybe 10-12 or even 15? of these "supports" all the way along...

then, as the covering material(that will actully form the floor you walk on(even though im pretty sure that tiger shed comes with a floor panel?!) i was thinking of decking material?

what is everyones views on this? im not too clued up on damp proofing, what do i need to protect against?
do i build the base to the EXACT size of the shed, or can i build it slightly oversized and place the shed in the middle with like a "ledge" going around it?

Hope you can help! once i actully start doing this i want to document it with photos for my own benifit(as a reminder of my hard work!) and id love to share them with you all!!

Many Thanks,

Tom.

 

[TornUp]

ok, so my ascii art didn't work!

this is my paint quick knock up! heh..

https://photos-2.dropbox.com/i/xl/qgjLg ... 0floor.jpg

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Tornup,

From what you say,, you are miles away from building a proper shed in the proper way! First off, your local council might want to know how big it is and what percentage of your plot space it's taking up. (To stop people covering over their whole gardens!) Otherwise, generally you don't need permission for a shed.

My advice would be to buy a good quality shed of the size you need, and then have it erected on a concrete base, or at least paving slabs, properly laid, and the shed placed on top of a damp proof membrane. Buy a shed with a floor, and a ridged roof. (The neighbours like them better). You should insulate, damp-proof and line the walls and roof, inside. Do this properly and you will be cosy and not much worse off financially, than if you built your own, stronger shed.

I am sure someone will be along to tell you what is the best, modern way of damp proofing, but I did my old shed with simple bitumen felt stuck to the inside of the cladding. Insulation over that,between the frames, and then cheap plywood nailed all over inside. I painted it white, put skirting in and ran architrave all around at the top. I used the rafters under the ridge for storing long bits of timber etc.

Whatever you do, don't rely on wood sunk into the earth for your uprights.

But for a starter workshop, as I suggested, BUY a decent shed, have a look at how they are put together and as your skills increase think about building your own at a later date. You might even decide to go for a brick-built shop!
HTH

best of luck

 

[yetloh]

Hi Tornup,

I completely agree with Benchwayze. I would add that you should also insulate between the floor joists. The highest insulation valur fro any given thickness is given by Celotex (or one of the other rigid expanded celulose boards). It's a bit more expensive than fibreglass but worth the extra.

A picture post of the project as it progresses would be good.

Good luck,

Jim

 

[TornUp]

does anyone have any experience with:

http://www.tigersheds.com/product_detai ... option=441

Maybe building the shed is a little overkill....

so concrete base, and then cover any points of contact between the concrete and the shed floor with some sort of damp proof membrane.

any tips for isulating the inside?

thanks for your advice/help!

Tom.

 

[yetloh]

Celotex or similar for inside too.

Jim

 

[hammer n nails]

hi tom instead of concrete lay slabs on a dry mix 5 to 1 i brought my workshop off the internet you can see it on this site i too have lined the sheg and i used fibreglass the same as used in lofts then i used plywood to line the shed when it first went up it was very cold and the members told me i should put insulation in this has now been done and is a lot warmer now THANKS GUYS)

 

[Wood Monkey]

Hi TornUp

My opinions based on what I'd do if I was building again from scratch.

Base/Floor
Concrete slab. If you can lay a slab then it is by far the best option in my opinion. In my case the building manufacturers specified a single course of engineering brick for the building to sit on. Once erected I overlaid the concrete with 1 inch insulation and T&G moisture resistant floor boarding screwed to bearers. I'm really happy with the floor - easy to clean, solid, warm and friendly to dropped tools. I got Mix'a'mate in and it was dead easy.

Buy versus build
I'd say buy everytime unless you have a specific deign you want to create. No doubt some of the custom builds you see on this forum are awesome, but they take a lot of time and a lot of skill and for what you describe I expect there is no advantages to building yourself.

Insulation
I used fibreglass in the walls and ceiling and over clad with 12mm WBP ply on the walls and T&G pine on the ceiling. It's very toasty in my workshop, but I'd use celotex rigid in the ceiling if I was doing it again. Also don't forget some sort of moisture barrier between the external cladding and the insulation.

Tiger Sheds
I'm not familiar with them, but looking at the spec of the 20x10 my only comment would be that the structural bearers look a little small in my opinion. But I'm sure they know what they are doing and they will be adequate. If you over clad internally with decent thickness ply then this will add a lot of strength anyway. The other problem with little bearers is small cavity for insulation.

Size
No matter what you put in it will be too small Seriously, I would say 20x10 is a nice size, but 20x12 would feel much bigger and 20x14 a further massive step up. Planning rules permitting, think about size long and hard. I wanted to go 24x14 but SWMBO said it would be too big and I agreed so went with 18x14. Her first words when it went up were "wow, it's much smaller than I expected.". Grrrrrrr....!

Other stuff
Plan ahead for electrics.
Windows - can you upgrade to double glazed widows. Worth it if you are insulating. What about a window in the roof?
Security - beef up the doors and maybe consider internal window shutters.
Lighting - Can never have too much and paint the internal walls white (I used cheap emulsion with no problems).

Here's a link to my build. https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/jons-workshop-pictures-t21504.html

Good luck, Jon

 

[Benchwayze]

Would have to go along with that from Wood-monkey.

Unless you pay four figures, most sheds today are framed with 30mm square at most. Not really strong enough for my taste, so beefing up the frames after putting up the shed, is a good idea. Use additional 30mm square or even 50 mm square. Hope your Council allows a decent percentage of your plot for size; however roomy you think a shed might be, it will never be big enough! :mrgreen:

Best of Luck

 

[TornUp]

Ok....so after the comments above... my plan is:

Flooring:
Im still unsure about how to handle the floor.... can somone give me some more advice? Im now planning on putting down a concrete slab(more info on how this is done please?) but the shed im basing all my plans on seems to have a wooden floor as part of the package, how would i insulate this? or would it be better to pretty much do this: put down concrete slab -> put wooden floor on top of concrete slap(how would i attach this? bolt it into the concrete?) -> build an isulated floor on top of existing floor(this can then be done as a future upgrade)

Walls
so once the shed is up, i will extend the existing framework out a recommended, attach some form of damp proof protection onto the inside of the cladding(any one any tips on this? what product?) and then cover it all with some form of sheet material

Ceiling
same as walls, but prob cover the ceiling in cheap tong and groove.

how does that sound for a plan?

 

[Wood Monkey]

Hi TornUp

Sounds like a plan is emerging. I was dreading my build and then I started and it all fell into place.

Base
The concrete slab is really straight forward. Mark out where it's going to be. Obviously the minimum size needs to match the size of the building perimeter, but in my case I went 30mm bigger all round and painted the exposed concrete. I'd personally suggest going a bit bigger all round is a good idea then you have more options to bolt the building down to the slab. I'd suggest digging down 100-150mm below the surrounding ground level and then dropping in boards (shuttering) that sit at the desired finished height for the top of the slab and form the final finished dimensions. The benefit of sinking it into the ground is that you can backfill the shuttering to hold it in place. Remember the best way to make sure you are square is measuring across the diagonals if they are the same (or near as makes no difference) then you are square. Infill with type 1 hardcore. This stuff is great. Spread it out and whack it down with a vibrating plate or you could do it with a manual whacking pole with a square steel foot (don't know the real name) and is makes a really solid sub base. I'd keep the hardcore about 25-30mm below the ground height.

Over this lay a DPM. If the surface has any sharp bits then you can spread sand on before the DPM to avoid the DPM getting punctured. Then get mix'a'mate of similar in and start putting concrete in. When you are about half full of concrete I'd suggest some steel reinforcing mesh which you should be able to buy at the same place as the type 1 (build centre, wickes and so on...). Complete the filling and tamp down the concrete and float (smooth) the surface if you want it smooth. Don't do it if there is a chance of freezing and equally don't do it in the middle of the hottest day of the year as it will dry out and concrete like to be wet for a while (concrete doesn't dry - it cures ;-).

To attach the chipboard or ply overlay to the slab I simply screwed 25mm thick battens to the concrete using raw plugs and screws making sure they were not long enough to reach the DPM. Put the batters every 300-400mm and infix the gap with some suitable insulation (i used 25mm polystyrene) and then simply overboard (after the building is up of course).

Walls
I think a building paper will be sufficient for damp proofing. I think Tyvek (??) is one make, but most of the DIY sheds or Screwfix sell versions of it. Make sure you get it the correct way round as it normally has an outer and an inner face. You may find that covering the internal walls with 9-12mm ply will be sufficient to add the strength you need and thus avoid widening the bearers. Screw the ply to the existing bearers. If you don't extend the building bearers then you can still get a decent thickness of rigid insulation between the building paper and the ply cladding (The Tiger Shed has 44mm bearers). Paint the walls white.

Ceiling
Same as the walls, but make sure you get as thick as possible insulation in there as this is where your heat loss is greatest. In my opinion the pine cladding is a nice touch.

Make sure you post pictures.

Jon

 

[Digit]

Well Tom, whilst having the geatest respect for the other posters I disagree with most of what they say as a means of erecting a workshop.
I live in a timber building and have built a number of additional timber structures, including my workshop.
Personally I dislike concrete flooring, three reasons, one, they can be might cold, two, they are expensive and three not all that easy to get dead level.
My chosen method, and right here I will say each to his own, there is no one way to do the job, is concrete spots, as level as reasonable, followed by bricks/blocks on top.
Then heavy beams across, level these with packings, OSB floor on top and workshop on top of that.
Personally I would not buy a shed as most are far too flimsy, by the time you have added spacing pieces to allow for insulation you have damn near built another one inside!
My shop is 16ft X8ft constructed of 3X2 timbers and timber cladding outside.
Two days to level and construct the floor then three more days till I was inside.
This was done by me and my wife and I was 67 at the time!
But good luck what ever you do!

Roy.

 

[Shultzy]

TornUp, I agree with digit although a bought shed is easier to put up they usually aren't thick enough to take the insulation, which I think should be at least 4" (100mm). Have a look at my shed build, at the very least you will get a better indication of what to do.

 

[Benchwayze]

Roy,

That's precisely why I suggested adding thicker framing inside to beef-up' the shed construction. As far as I can see, if you buy a modern ship-lap shed, then the cladding is no different than the ship-lap I have seen at my local sawmill. The frames are nothing to write home about, but the 6 x 4 tool-shed I have at present is a bought shed. It's lasted well over ten years, and has responded well to normal care. It needs new felting, but that's about it.

A clapboard shed is a different matter. Feather-board today is, I agree, flimsy at best! I suggested a bought shed, because I think, for a novice without a shop, that's the best way to get into a workshop, with the least amount of work. Improvements come later, when you know more or less what you want!

 

[Wood Monkey]

I love a healthy debate ;-)

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but as I said in my first response "based on the experiences of my build I would do it like this".

I went for bought instead of self build for cost and time reasons. My workshop came from a company called Char Stables and is built on 100mm bearers with 19mm shiplap (pre laid with moisture barrier) and 125mm roof bearers - all pressure treated. I upgraded doors, windows and shingle roof from an options list. The guys erected it in a morning had some lunch and then spent the afternoon shingling the roof, fitting the guttering, windows and bolting it down. I couldn't get within £1000 of their quote if I priced it myself and it would have taken me an age to build. I would have loved to build it myself and envy you guys that have done so and I admit I would have done some things differently to the off the shelf design, but I desperately needed a workshop and my tools were spread around a number of friends garages and what have you.

http://www.charttimberbuildings.co.uk/page/garages/value-garages-and-workshops Tom, maybe it's worth looking at these guys, they were very competitive at the time.

Regarding insulation. I think if Tom gets 1 inch celotex in the walls and ceiling it will be pretty good. Possibly even 1.5 inch in the roof. If he extends the bearers a little and doubles this then that much rigid insulation will, in my experience, be better than 4 inches of glass fibre. After all, the windows are going to be the heat leakers. If the internals are correctly clad with 12mm ply then a 44mm bearer building will be pretty strong in my opinion. Maybe consider just beefing up the roof bearers to stop sagging and so you can get more insulation in there and maybe some selected bracing for peace of mind.

I partly agree on concrete floors. Mine was bare for a year and was horrible. It grabbed and held sawdust, was cold and ate dropped tools. When I over boarded (as was always the plan) with 25mm insulation below it was transformed. In fact it now seems to act as a heat source - warms up during the day and leaches it's heat out overnight. It recently dropped to -11 here and my internal temp never dropped below 0 and I have no overnight heating in the workshop. I've given up applying any protection to my cast iron or vulnerable tools as I've never seen any condensation. I priced up other floor options and the suspended method was hugely more expensive than a poured slab, in fact more than double. I'd also say that getting a poured base level is't any more difficult than getting a suspended base level for us DIY'ers. The MR chipboard flooring panels aren't the prettiest things in the world, but they are cheap, flat, easy to lay and very very durable. If I build another workshop I will do my base and floor exactly the same way.

I give my workshop a coat of Sadolin every 3 years and it looks as good as new. As I mentioned before all the structural woodwork and cladding is pressure treated.

Like Digit, I have massive respect for many of the posters on here and accept that we all have our own preferences. However, as is so often the case in all things compromise is often the best way forward.

I think it's good for us to share our different views and justifications of those views so Tom gets the full scope of feedback whilst he's in the decision zone.

Jon

 

[mbartlett99]

Hey Tornup

Don't know if you saw my PM but I'm just erecting a Tigersheds in the garden. If you're quick you can come up and have a look at the founds before I cover it up.

I've used a frame of 2 x 6 supported on piles/dwarf walls over the old patio, covered that over with OSB3 then gone onto the Tigersheds kit. Their stuff is designed to be assembled over a concrete pad so you will need to provide it with a flat base to sit on. Its quite easy to assemble once the foundations are done.

BTW don't use Wickes - Travis Perkins is lots cheaper and Brookers concrete mix is a mile better/cheaper.

TTFN

 

[Benchwayze]

For Wood Monkey,

I'll go along with that Jon.
The shed I want, in addition to my workshop, is going to be just 10 x 6.
I probably will build it myself, but I doubt the design will differ much from a bought shed.
Materials, and dimensions of timbers though; now that's a different matter! For a start, I am considering shingles, as a luxury!

 

[TornUp]

hmm.... I love mixed views! it gives you a much broader picture, but my gosh does it make things even harder to decide(on an already hard decision!)

The thing is, the shed i am looking at purchasing(i did look at charttimberbuildings.co.uk.... they are a little bigger then i need and a little more then what i was hoping to be paying...) already has a floor:
http://www.tigersheds.com/images/large/ ... kshop2.jpg
http://www.tigersheds.com/images/large/ ... kshop3.jpg

Would I put down a concrete base, as instructed in previous posts ^^ and then simply sit this shed on the top of the base? (Do i need any additional damp proofing?) is there any way/point in insulating that floor? or should i then build an additional floor on top of that with insulation?

You mentioned that the wall framework should be large enough to allow insulation in between the outer "skin"(that will have damp proof put on before the insulation) and the plywood skin... so about 12mm is going to be fine yeah?

I think iv got a lot better understand how im going to get it all together now!.... i just need to figer out what todo after the concrete base...

additionally, its going to be hard to access some of the sides of the shed once it is in place.... im presuming to regularly mantain the shed i need to be able to treat it ever 1-2 years? is this going to be a problem if i cant access it? i could possibly get a roller down the sides/back......

Tom.

 

[Digit]

Improvements come later, when you know more or less what you want!

If you ever do John, I'm still modding and improving my shop after nearly 5 years!
I was lucky in that I already had all the bulky items before building so at least I didn't have to worry about getting something else in that I hadn't planned for.

Roy.

 

[Benchwayze]

Hah! Roy..

I have finished buying machinery. That's one thing I am sure of...
Ermmmm. Hang on.... If I build a shed, I might have room for a proper table saw! :lol: