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Wood isn't what it used to be? It's not the wood its the paint

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Jacob

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Popular reason expressed for new redwood windows rotting quickly. Came up in another place recently.
Have to say I've had one or two windows go horribly quickly which is why I always supplied them primed only - then I can blame the painter. :unsure: I've done careful paint jobs on my own stuff - strictly according instructions and no compromise over materials, but they've gone too!
Sometimes just 3 years in and the paint is lifting and peeling!
Worse still - the paint can look OK but the wood underneath can be wet and rotting.
Is it the wood? Well no this also happened on very old woodwork but 2/3 years since newly painted - some ledge and battened doors.
Until I discovered linseed oil paints! They stick permanently and only deteriorates from the surface inwards, rather than cracking and peeling and lifting off.
Problem solved. It's not the wood it's the paint.
Now 10 years in and no probs, not used anything else externally except Allback paints. There are other brands too. I've no connection with Allback.
Google "linseed oil paints".
I first heard about it under the brand name of Holkham Hall about 10 years ago. 10 years is enough elapsed time for early adopters to realise that it does do what it says on the tin! It's now getting much better known.
I've come to the conclusion that the whole industry around alternatives to redwood - plastic, accoya, iroko, etc have developed because modern paint is craap.
 
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Ollie78

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Can you spray it with an airless sprayer (kremlin eos) ? And does it dry quickly ?

Ollie
 

Jacob

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Can you spray it with an airless sprayer (kremlin eos) ? And does it dry quickly ?

Ollie
Don't know and no. Takes 2 days to dry. It has to be brushed out thin, very different from modern paints
 

Flynnwood

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I've never used it. But when I look at (say), a car that is ten years old and the paint is still perfect given minus 10 degrees to plus 30 degrees, together with all the flex a car can go through - one has to wonder why, for example, "paint for external metal" (i.e. railings) can only last "up to" five years.
 

Jacob

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I've never used it. But when I look at (say), a car that is ten years old and the paint is still perfect given minus 10 degrees to plus 30 degrees, together with all the flex a car can go through - one has to wonder why, for example, "paint for external metal" (i.e. railings) can only last "up to" five years.
Motor finishes are hi tec expensive industrial applied factory finished. You could do the same to railings I expect - as long as you are happy to scrap them after 10 years or so!
Linseed good on metalwork too. I've got black 5 years old on some wrought iron gates. Could do with a fresh coat but it's still all stuck firmly down and looks OK.
 

Bm101

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Why the sudden post on linseed paint Jacob? You've been a proponent for many years but why the brand new thread now? I am open to it other than the conversion from modern external paints looks to be painfully expensive.
 

thetyreman

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I think you're onto something jacob, I think it's not just modern paint that rots the windows, it's cement mortar and silicone, originally the building would have had lime mortar with hair in it and oakum instead of silicon, all this traditional knowledge is being lost sadly and it's something I'm quite interested in, especially since reading 'hot mixed lime and traditional mortars' by copsey.
 

Jacob

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Why the sudden post on linseed paint Jacob? You've been a proponent for many years but why the brand new thread now? I am open to it other than the conversion from modern external paints looks to be painfully expensive.
My name came up on another site, on this topic.
I've used it over failed modern paints i.e. brushed/sanded off all loose stuff, washed down with sugar soap and sanded. It sticks fine on the paint too, you don't have to strip it all off. May be different with some paints I don't know.
It looks expensive but it isn't - it goes a very long way - it has to be brushed out thin. I think even in the short term it is cheaper in use, in the longer term it's a no brainer, definitely is.
 

Adam W.

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I think you're onto something jacob, I think it's not just modern paint that rots the windows, it's cement mortar and silicone, originally the building would have had lime mortar with hair in it and oakum instead of silicon, all this traditional knowledge is being lost sadly and it's something I'm quite interested in, especially since reading 'hot mixed lime and traditional mortars' by copsey.
Lime and hair on the inside only please. No hair on the outside, as it's full of enzymes, holds water and leads to fungal growth.

Linseed putty for glazing, yonks old and is just chalk and linseed oil.
 

RobinBHM

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They stick permanently and only deteriorates from the surface inwards, rather than cracking and peeling and lifting off
water based paints erode from the surface.

The detailing of joinery has a big influence on time between redecoration cycles and longevity.

V joints at all joints
3mm radius on all edges
Avoidance of water entrapment
Suitable water shed angles.

Most premature paint failures on windows and doors are due to joinery design faults rather than the paint.


I do think though that the linseed paints can be a really useful option for DIYers, but no good for commercial application.
 

Adam W.

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If you're lucky tyreman, one day I'll do a walk through on riving your own oak lath and you can all get down and crusty with yours truly.
 

Jacob

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water based paints erode from the surface.

The detailing of joinery has a big influence on time between redecoration cycles and longevity.

V joints at all joints
3mm radius on all edges
Avoidance of water entrapment
Suitable water shed angles.

Most premature paint failures on windows and doors are due to joinery design faults rather than the paint.
They fail on perfectly designed and constructed doors and windows too, old or new.
I do think though that the linseed paints can be a really useful option for DIYers, but no good for commercial application.
It's on the way I think. Takes a few years to find out if the stuff will last a few years!
 

Adam W.

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If you mix your own linseed oil paint you could get some really nice coloured windows. I was planning to paint my tool chest with bone black mixed with linseed oil, but never got around to it.

You need a drying agent like genuine turpentine with raw linseed if you want to do it.
 

Flynnwood

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@ " water based paints erode from the surface."

Many new cars are painted using water-based.
 

heimlaga

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I am with Jacob on this.
Pine windows painted with modern acrylic paint rarely last long. The acrylic paint and the polurethane foam used to install the windows don't let the moisture out once it has entered the wood. Even old windows that have been perfectly sound often rot out after being repainted with acrylic.

Though there is another side to it too. Modern forestry practises has totally destroyed the quality of most pine timber grown today.
Everything focuses on incresing volume growth and te trees are harvested as young as possible which means that the growth rings are wide and the precious little hartwood there is will be full of huge knots so one has to use sapwood for window casements for which it is totally unsuitable due to lack of rot resistance.
To get good quality pine for windows the tree should grow at least 140 years preferably a few decades more. That is the time it takes to form enough heartwood with tight enough growth rings and small enough knots. The forestry experts say a pine tree more than 80 years old must urgently be cut down to avoid some esoteric harm which they haven't been able to explain to me.
I suppose one main problem is that most large sawmills are set up to saw only small timber.
The other main problem is the lobbyism of the pulp mills. They are of cause interrested in making us all grow timber that is only good for pulp. Pulp wood is paid at 19 euros per solid cubic metre standing in the woods or 28 euros per solid cubic metre when felled and hauled to a road passable for lorries. Essentially free that is. If you sell it standing they take all they can and leave you with a prety much destroyed forest parcel. If you sell it delivered by the road 28 euros per cubic metre hardly covers your costs......... but as long as people are stuck with forestry practises that mostly produce pulpwood the pulp mills get as much pulpwood as they want even on those conditions.

This year I have barked all small timber that blew down in the storm in September. With the intention to build a round log woodshed from it. I just couldn't sell it as pulpwood for less than my cost.
Of cause a logging company contacted me offering to take care of it all storm damage as is which means to clearcut our entire parcel. That would have left us without any spruce timber of our own for the next 80 years and no pine for the next 140 years..........
We will be sawing approximately 150 logs for our own use this year. I just cannot bring myself to sell anything to those sprouts.
 

Adam W.

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Chestnut, surely?:)

Chestnut, oak, pine, hazel, they've all been used.

Chestnut doesn't grow here, although where I coppice a guy is having some success which is great as it grows fast and coppices well, I guess it's why it's known as The Sussex Weed.

Oak's what I have, so it's home riven oak lath in my ceilings and walls with hairy lime plaster and limewash over that.
 
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mr rusty

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Chestnut doesn't grow here
It most certainly does. When I lived near Manningtree in Essex a local wood was nearly all sweet chestnut coppiced for chestnut and wire paling fences.
 

Cabinetman

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I am with Jacob on this.
Pine windows painted with modern acrylic paint rarely last long. The acrylic paint and the polurethane foam used to install the windows don't let the moisture out once it has entered the wood. Even old windows that have been perfectly sound often rot out after being repainted with acrylic.

Though there is another side to it too. Modern forestry practises has totally destroyed the quality of most pine timber grown today.
Everything focuses on incresing volume growth and te trees are harvested as young as possible which means that the growth rings are wide and the precious little hartwood there is will be full of huge knots so one has to use sapwood for window casements for which it is totally unsuitable due to lack of rot resistance.
To get good quality pine for windows the tree should grow at least 140 years preferably a few decades more. That is the time it takes to form enough heartwood with tight enough growth rings and small enough knots. The forestry experts say a pine tree more than 80 years old must urgently be cut down to avoid some esoteric harm which they haven't been able to explain to me.
I suppose one main problem is that most large sawmills are set up to saw only small timber.
The other main problem is the lobbyism of the pulp mills. They are of cause interrested in making us all grow timber that is only good for pulp. Pulp wood is paid at 19 euros per solid cubic metre standing in the woods or 28 euros per solid cubic metre when felled and hauled to a road passable for lorries. Essentially free that is. If you sell it standing they take all they can and leave you with a prety much destroyed forest parcel. If you sell it delivered by the road 28 euros per cubic metre hardly covers your costs......... but as long as people are stuck with forestry practises that mostly produce pulpwood the pulp mills get as much pulpwood as they want even on those conditions.

This year I have barked all small timber that blew down in the storm in September. With the intention to build a round log woodshed from it. I just couldn't sell it as pulpwood for less than my cost.
Of cause a logging company contacted me offering to take care of it all storm damage as is which means to clearcut our entire parcel. That would have left us without any spruce timber of our own for the next 80 years and no pine for the next 140 years..........
We will be sawing approximately 150 logs for our own use this year. I just cannot bring myself to sell anything to those sprouts.
I think sprouts is too nice a word for people like that, entirely agree with you about the quality of a lot of softwood available nowadays, 40 years ago it was easy to buy good quality pine, have to search for it now. Ian
 

Jacob

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I think sprouts is too nice a word for people like that, entirely agree with you about the quality of a lot of softwood available nowadays, 40 years ago it was easy to buy good quality pine, have to search for it now. Ian
No prob - you just have to go for "unsorted" grade. It can be beautiful stuff. There's less of it about as it has gone out of fashion due to plastic and other timbers being used, but yards still stock it.
I last bought a load from Snows but I think they are under new management.
 

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