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Won't somebody think of "young people"? (Edit: and No, older people aren't "to blame")

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billw

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Observations

I find it difficult to define, YOUNG today.

All I can see is opportunity at every turn.
Maybe that's because I'm old?
The guidance isn't there today I will say that.
Maybe that's the problem enlightenment?
But will they listen?

Be blowed if I'd pay uni fees and then spend it in the pub or a year or two back packing.

I'd be badgering any engineering company to sponsor me, or a supermarket, or a civil engineering company.....roads and bridges the way to go right?
But there are loads of FT 100 companies out there.
I'd pick the right course for the job I wanted, a degree the employers want.
I'd work three days a week because lectures are only two days a week. Course work at weekends or at night.
I'd pick a uni I could travel daily to and live at home to save money.
And I'd save.
I'd eventually move north and buy a home.
Then a bigger house.

If I picked the wrong job?
Tough. I stuck an apprenticeship for 6 years hated every minute but if held me in good stead whatever I did.
So I'd stick at it. Head down stuck in.


Don't go hiding behind I was a late developer, or I didn't know what I wanted at 30.
It just doesn't rub. Get stuck in.


So this is my plan
Might sound a load of rubbish to you.
But its a plan and without a plan you will only look back when your old and say,
If Only, I wish that I'd..........If I'd only........
What a great plan if it was 1971 all over again.
 

D_W

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What a great plan if it was 1971 all over again.
mathematics curriculum was a bit too busy for that here. I tried to work friday and saturday nights at one point (i know, real party boy) but working late into each one set me back for catching up on course work saturday and sunday and I had to drop it eventually. Working several days a week is something for cheesy colleges or easy majors.
 

Amateur

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What a great plan if it was 1971 all over again.
1971
ibrox disaster
angry brigade bombed sec states home, bomb planted in department of employment.
Postal workers go on strike.
Rolls Royce go bankrupt.
immigration bill to strip commonwealth immigrants of their rights to stay in uk
repatriation scheme demanded.
250,000 kill the bomb protesters went on strike
rioting in north Derry
UNEMPLOYMENT reached post war high of 815,000
morris marina launched
free milk to schools stops
harvey Smith gives V sign to judges
90 Russian Diplomats expelled for spying
house of commons voted in favour of joining EEC
More killings in Belfast
More soldiers killed in Ireland
inflation stood at 8.6% a 30 year high

Yeh the good old days you mean?
 

billw

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1971

Yeh the good old days you mean?
Congratulations on being able to use google, but it was flippant and more suggestive that your "plan" belongs in the past. When I was a lad I had to eat coal etc etc.

All I can see is opportunity at every turn.
Maybe that's because I'm old?


Also because you can magic "opportunity" out of thin air because you're probably not the one trying to get a job out these supposed "opportunities".

The guidance isn't there today I will say that.
Maybe that's the problem enlightenment?
But will they listen?


Hopefully not to you.

Be blowed if I'd pay uni fees and then spend it in the pub or a year or two back packing.

Ah fees. Did your generation have to pay them? I mean I *technically* do but it's all of government loans and the chances of them seeing much of it back are probably.....slim.

I'd be badgering any engineering company to sponsor me, or a supermarket, or a civil engineering company.....roads and bridges the way to go right?

They do exist, but rare. I know someone who's on a 6 year apprenticeship with JLR, but he had to jump through hoops to get it and a lot of applicants didn't. A LOT of applicants didn't.

But there are loads of FT 100 companies out there.

There's 100 of them.

I'd pick the right course for the job I wanted, a degree the employers want.

You know strangely enough I think many students do just that, certainly the brighter ones. But they're mostly 18 when they go to uni and trust me they really don't have much idea what they want to do, even less what they'll be able to do.

I'd work three days a week because lectures are only two days a week. Course work at weekends or at night.

When I did my accountancy qualification I worked a 9-5 then did study from 6-10 5 days a week, then studied at weekends occasionally. It burned me out and doing that for three or four years? Come on. Young people want a bit of a life too you know.

I'd pick a uni I could travel daily to and live at home to save money.

Most students want to get away from their family to start to work towards independence. Something they might not be able to achieve and have to go live with their parents again after uni. Give them a break!

And I'd save.

Not as a student you wouldn't.

I'd eventually move north and buy a home.

Good plan when most of the jobs are down south. Also you need a deposit for that. No savings, remember?

Then a bigger house.

This plan is just going great. I'm amazed it's so easy. Swimming pool? Perhaps a billiard room? Maybe a bit of land so you can build a runway for your private jet?

If I picked the wrong job?
Tough. I stuck an apprenticeship for 6 years hated every minute but if held me in good stead whatever I did.
So I'd stick at it. Head down stuck in.


That sounds like the way to form a perfectly well-rounded individual. Nothing like 6 years of sheer hell in your early career to really give you a rosy feeling about the next 40-ish years of employment.

Don't go hiding behind I was a late developer, or I didn't know what I wanted at 30.
It just doesn't rub. Get stuck in.


Well thank the lord that there's a booming global economy and jobs are so plentiful some people are taking two and then just not turning up for one :rolleyes:

All the lower-paid jobs that young people often do to get experience are all going because retail's dying, the leisure sector is currently in stasis, graduate schemes still take people on but they're few and far between, it's all good and well saying "well start your own business" but not everyone's got the skill/ability/confidence to do that.

Jobs are increasingly at risk of automation and AI taking them over, the future is not looking rosy whatsoever for a lot of the job market. Older people are now more likely to stay in their roles for longer to make up for the pandemic and lack of money for retirement, so that removes the career progression for people underneath unless firms expand, which right now they don't seem to be.
 

Rorschach

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@billw great post. Unfortunately Amateur is just another boomer who think the problems are youth are caused by their laziness, love of lattes and avocado toast and if they could just stop looking at their phones they would be able to get a mortgage no problem :LOL:
 

RobinBHM

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Sadly the drive to make University available for all has led to a proliferation of non vocational courses and degrees are now 10 a penny.

The only sustainable way to make this country wealthier is to make it more productive.

Higher productivity comes from better management, better technical skills.

This country should invest massively in further education, technical, skills not universities.

And highly vocational degrees, like medicine should get bursaries.
 

RobinBHM

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it's all good and well saying "well start your own business" but not everyone's got the skill/ability/confidence to do that
Judging by the millions of young people with YouTube channels, I'd say young people are often highly motivated and work day and night to get a career out of it.

Although the less said about "influencers" the better.
 

Amateur

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Congratulations on being able to use google, but it was flippant and more suggestive that your "plan" belongs in the past. When I was a lad I had to eat coal etc etc.

All I can see is opportunity at every turn.
Maybe that's because I'm old?


Also because you can magic "opportunity" out of thin air because you're probably not the one trying to get a job out these supposed "opportunities".

The guidance isn't there today I will say that.
Maybe that's the problem enlightenment?
But will they listen?


Hopefully not to you.

Be blowed if I'd pay uni fees and then spend it in the pub or a year or two back packing.

Ah fees. Did your generation have to pay them? I mean I *technically* do but it's all of government loans and the chances of them seeing much of it back are probably.....slim.

I'd be badgering any engineering company to sponsor me, or a supermarket, or a civil engineering company.....roads and bridges the way to go right?

They do exist, but rare. I know someone who's on a 6 year apprenticeship with JLR, but he had to jump through hoops to get it and a lot of applicants didn't. A LOT of applicants didn't.

But there are loads of FT 100 companies out there.

There's 100 of them.

I'd pick the right course for the job I wanted, a degree the employers want.

You know strangely enough I think many students do just that, certainly the brighter ones. But they're mostly 18 when they go to uni and trust me they really don't have much idea what they want to do, even less what they'll be able to do.

I'd work three days a week because lectures are only two days a week. Course work at weekends or at night.

When I did my accountancy qualification I worked a 9-5 then did study from 6-10 5 days a week, then studied at weekends occasionally. It burned me out and doing that for three or four years? Come on. Young people want a bit of a life too you know.

I'd pick a uni I could travel daily to and live at home to save money.

Most students want to get away from their family to start to work towards independence. Something they might not be able to achieve and have to go live with their parents again after uni. Give them a break!

And I'd save.

Not as a student you wouldn't.

I'd eventually move north and buy a home.

Good plan when most of the jobs are down south. Also you need a deposit for that. No savings, remember?

Then a bigger house.

This plan is just going great. I'm amazed it's so easy. Swimming pool? Perhaps a billiard room? Maybe a bit of land so you can build a runway for your private jet?

If I picked the wrong job?
Tough. I stuck an apprenticeship for 6 years hated every minute but if held me in good stead whatever I did.
So I'd stick at it. Head down stuck in.


That sounds like the way to form a perfectly well-rounded individual. Nothing like 6 years of sheer hell in your early career to really give you a rosy feeling about the next 40-ish years of employment.

Don't go hiding behind I was a late developer, or I didn't know what I wanted at 30.
It just doesn't rub. Get stuck in.


Well thank the lord that there's a booming global economy and jobs are so plentiful some people are taking two and then just not turning up for one :rolleyes:

All the lower-paid jobs that young people often do to get experience are all going because retail's dying, the leisure sector is currently in stasis, graduate schemes still take people on but they're few and far between, it's all good and well saying "well start your own business" but not everyone's got the skill/ability/confidence to do that.

Jobs are increasingly at risk of automation and AI taking them over, the future is not looking rosy whatsoever for a lot of the job market. Older people are now more likely to stay in their roles for longer to make up for the pandemic and lack of money for retirement, so that removes the career progression for people underneath unless firms expand, which right now they don't seem to be.
It does disturb me with replies like this to a post that offers maybe a different approach.
On every point you have a negative response.
Because you have a fixed view of how you see things maybe and don't wish to change that view?
Yet you bring no alternative suggestions?
It's as it is and that's it?
Kids will never own a home or have a decent retirement fund for old age if they don't plan early enough.
That's a fact..
And having a de feated view will never achieve that and only make you bitter and angry as you Get older.
it will always be someone else's fault, I was young, you had it easy.
false objections.


A couple of non post related observations.

There are just short of 130,000 Asian students studying in the Uk.
Their mind set is far different from our own.
All they see is opportunity, not negativity.
You don't see them drunk on the streets of our university cities, or drug taking and partying their university privileges away.
They are the same age as our students but are more likely to be studying engineering, sciences,, medicine and not art or interior design.

The food industry employ a vast number of people.
While people shun working in supermarkets as below them the opportunities are vast.
From accounting , to outside company product development, sales and marketing to specialised buyers. Etc. It's not just shelf stacking and supermarket management. There are good career paths here.

The same goes for engineering. Rolls Royce, British Aerospace, thousands of individual supporting companies diversified into different sectors.
And if you live in the South all the jobs are not down there.

Never a better time to become a medical professional either.
Or civil engineer.

That's for starters.
 
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Amateur

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Sadly the drive to make University available for all has led to a proliferation of non vocational courses and degrees are now 10 a penny.

The only sustainable way to make this country wealthier is to make it more productive.

Higher productivity comes from better management, better technical skills.

This country should invest massively in further education, technical, skills not universities.

And highly vocational degrees, like medicine should get bursaries.
I agree on most of your comments.

I can only hope this Power House of the North concept will come to fruition.
At the moment Asia pumps out all the muck from their foundries while we all turn a blind eye.
It will be interesting to see how they will tackle the raw material conversion vrs pollution output if we start manufacturing.
 
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billw

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"You can't become an expert in most fields in 3 years, so while the things you learn during your degree are certainly important, probably the most important skill you pick up is how to teach yourself to fill in the gaps. That's why courses get less and less didactic as you progress - the student becomes ever-more proficient at teaching themselves, to the point that they can deal with new concepts, technologies, frameworks etc. independently in their career. Most important thing the majority of people get out of university, often without realising it. " (from a Professor)

Subject matter isn't necessarily the most important aspect. Also add on teaching life skills, independence meeting new friends (a lot of people meet their partner at university for example). Even people on "pointless" degrees can go on to do things not related to their field of study and get a good living out of it. One of my friends did a history degree and her dissertation was on the FBI and the Black Panther movement. I am pretty sure she'll never need to use that in a job, but that's not the point of writing it.

@Amateur I'm not being negative, I am being realistic. Your view of the world as being full of opportunity and it's the fault of the young for not taking them is just misguided. I don't want to be too broad or stereotypical (but probably will be), but opinions about the issues of the younger generations from people who are retired, have no mortgage, have a guaranteed pension income (possibly final salary based), and live in a comfortable home that was bought when house prices weren't 11x earnings...... they just usually smack of complete ignorance.

@RobinBHM Indeed the country does need to be more productive, the problem being that the people with the capital see higher productivity translating into less people and more machines so they can make more profit. I also TOTALLY agree about "influencers" but they make a lot of money for doing very little, or having a nomadic lifestyle. I saw one of them in action in Bali once, she spent about an hour in the pool, which had been covered in rose petals trying to get a perfect shot of her eating breakfast. Skinny little Russian girl she was. Had a team of three with her. She also didn't actually eat the breakfast and had two slices of toast afterwards. I never saw the final Instagram post but I bet she didn't mention what it took to get it.
 

Billy_wizz

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"You can't become an expert in most fields in 3 years, so while the things you learn during your degree are certainly important, probably the most important skill you pick up is how to teach yourself to fill in the gaps. That's why courses get less and less didactic as you progress - the student becomes ever-more proficient at teaching themselves, to the point that they can deal with new concepts, technologies, frameworks etc. independently in their career. Most important thing the majority of people get out of university, often without realising it. " (from a Professor)

Subject matter isn't necessarily the most important aspect. Also add on teaching life skills, independence meeting new friends (a lot of people meet their partner at university for example). Even people on "pointless" degrees can go on to do things not related to their field of study and get a good living out of it. One of my friends did a history degree and her dissertation was on the FBI and the Black Panther movement. I am pretty sure she'll never need to use that in a job, but that's not the point of writing it.

@Amateur I'm not being negative, I am being realistic. Your view of the world as being full of opportunity and it's the fault of the young for not taking them is just misguided. I don't want to be too broad or stereotypical (but probably will be), but opinions about the issues of the younger generations from people who are retired, have no mortgage, have a guaranteed pension income (possibly final salary based), and live in a comfortable home that was bought when house prices weren't 11x earnings...... they just usually smack of complete ignorance.

@RobinBHM Indeed the country does need to be more productive, the problem being that the people with the capital see higher productivity translating into less people and more machines so they can make more profit. I also TOTALLY agree about "influencers" but they make a lot of money for doing very little, or having a nomadic lifestyle. I saw one of them in action in Bali once, she spent about an hour in the pool, which had been covered in rose petals trying to get a perfect shot of her eating breakfast. Skinny little Russian girl she was. Had a team of three with her. She also didn't actually eat the breakfast and had two slices of toast afterwards. I never saw the final Instagram post but I bet she didn't mention what it took to get it.
The need for mechanisation over people isn't necessarily a choice but rather a necessity in order to be able to afford wages that will enable you to employ staff that are prepared to work and more importantly turn up 5 days a week more often than not! Most of the businesses I deal with have staffing issues the biggest being you just don't know if there going to turn up from 1 day to the next
 

Jacob

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The need for mechanisation over people isn't necessarily a choice but rather a necessity in order to be able to afford wages that will enable you to employ staff that are prepared to work and more importantly turn up 5 days a week more often than not! Most of the businesses I deal with have staffing issues the biggest being you just don't know if there going to turn up from 1 day to the next
Probably because they are cr*p employers.
Slaves are some of the least willing to turn up - in fact were notorious for trying to do runners and avoid recapture!
n.b. Mechanisation is cheaper. That's why production is mechanised.
Recommended reading The Many-Headed Hydra the most interesting book I've read for a long time. Makes Marx look like an amateur.
 

Amateur

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.b. Mechanisation is cheaper. That's why production is mechanised.
And in China. People are cheaper.
And in the food industry where output/ speed to feed an over populated planet is required primarily.
And in Farming where immigrant workers pick the produce.



The main driver for mechanisation is greater profit.
 

billw

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And in China. People are cheaper.
And in the food industry where output/ speed to feed an over populated planet is required primarily.
And in Farming where immigrant workers pick the produce.



The main driver for mechanisation is greater profit.
China - people are cheaper because the economy is "cheaper". Have you ever wondered why you can buy a beer for the equivalent of 50p in Budapest? It's because 50p to them is the equivalent to £4 for us. We're distracted by the fact the world seems "cheap" because most people have zero comprehension of WHY things are "cheap".

Food industry - if you think we're overpopulated now then the next 50 years are going to be a shock. Not for you obviously, unless immortality becomes real.

Farming - immigrants do the work because they'll work long hours for less money, which is what many British people are "too good" to do. Yes I've seen anecdotal evidence disputing that on here, but it's exceptions, not rules.
 

Amateur

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I'm not being negative, I am being realistic. Your view of the world as being full of opportunity and it's the fault of the young for not taking them is just misguided. I don't want to be too broad or stereotypical (but probably will be), but opinions about the issues of the younger generations from people who are retired, have no mortgage, have a guaranteed pension income (possibly final salary based), and live in a comfortable home that was bought when house prices weren't 11x earnings...... they just usually smack of complete ignorance.
I'm afraid if that's the way you see things its very sad.
But everyone to his opinion...right?

I'm out.
 

Amateur

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China - people are cheaper because the economy is "cheaper". Have you ever wondered why you can buy a beer for the equivalent of 50p in Budapest? It's because 50p to them is the equivalent to £4 for us. We're distracted by the fact the world seems "cheap" because most people have zero comprehension of WHY things are "cheap".

Food industry - if you think we're overpopulated now then the next 50 years are going to be a shock. Not for you obviously, unless immortality becomes real.

Farming - immigrants do the work because they'll work long hours for less money, which is what many British people are "too good" to do. Yes I've seen anecdotal evidence disputing that on here, but it's exceptions, not rules.
You said that Mechanisation is cheaper.
I was pointing out that in some areas it isn't.
Irrespective of prices in Budapest for a beer....
and in Scotland last year the predominant race picking Strawberries were the Scots and English themselves.
 

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