Who said bespoke woodwork doesn't pay?

[Gill]

Until this thread drifted off topic (ahem! :roll: ) I was finding it rather thought provoking. The most profound thought I had before opening a bottle of wine is that customers don't seem to want woodwork, they want a statement. It's the woodworker's task to make that statement using as little material as possible and making as few cuts as possible in order to maximise profit.

Gill

 

[BradNaylor]

I must apologise unreservedly for my totally unfounded slur on the reputation of lawyers.

They are hard-working, dedicated and upstanding members of an honourable profession who put their clients' and society's interests above their own.

Sorry
Dan

 

[Jake]

Classy retreat from actually substantiating what you said, Dan.

Let's get back on topic (and hopefully the discussions of how to make woodwork pay won't include tax evasion, benefit fraud, etc, etc).

 

[Jake]

Plenty of food for thought. Still not entirely convinced that the aforementioned toybox or letters are worth their price for CNC machined MDF. Hand made: yes, as Dan Tovey illustrates. I guess it's all down to the overheads.

The CNC machine is a big capital outlay - sure it makes it quicker and faster, but at a cost to the entrepreneur. The result for something like this will be at worst as good as 'handmade' (which is unlikely to be truly handmade) and is likely to be better.

 

[norman]

I doubt the revelation that there are dishonest solicitors around will shock anyone (much as it should).

Would that the dishonesty exhibited by most solicitors was confined merely to tax evasion...

Dan

Hi Dan

Think who maybe looking in to the forum.

I have just had a visit re working from home, because most of my freinds are in the woodworking trade and park their vans ouside my workshop when they visit.
As I am now 78 with heart byepass and all the other bits falling off, it was not to hard to convince them that this was not the case. But there you are some Sh'''''T thought they could put the boot in .

Best regards
Norman

 

[quickthorn]

... All this is typically 40 - 50%% of a business time.

...

I think this is about right. I'm also self employed - different trade, but still practical - and for every hour i spend actually earning money, there will be another half hour of essential work that I won't be paid for. It's often quite hard to explain, to some clients or other people who fancy starting up on their own, that this is how things are when you run your own business.

Back to the original post, maybe £125 is a bit steep for a toy box, because they don't seem to have sold many this month..

 

[big soft moose]

Hi.

£8.95 for one of those 200mm high letters! If I bought a £10 (or more expensive MR-MDF) sheet of 1220mm x 660mm x 18mm MDF, I could probably get 30-36 of those letters from it using my scroll saw and router, followed up with some sealer, primer and spray paint.

£8.95 x 36?

anyone....?

£322.20 for probably two days work (if you take into accountb time spent on ebay , despatching orders etc etc) £161.10 per day

48 x 5 day weeks per year (allowing 4 weeks holiday and weekends off) 240 days

240 x 161.10 = £38,664 pa gross

off that you have to pay

materials = £1200 (120 sheets of mdf at your prices)
plus workshop rent, electrickery, tool depreciation etc

optimistically that leaves arround 30k for your time

the govt then takes 25% of that in tax , national insurance etc (7500)

leaving net pay of £22,500 pa and off that you have to pay your own pension.

Its a living wage - just (about 2k less than i get from my day job)

and how much fun do you think making letters day in day out would actually be - my money would be on it being more boring and soul destroying than most jobs i've had.

 

[CNC Paul]

Bigsoft moose,

There are a few additions to your breakdown. The actual purchase of the CNC machine is pretty high plus the CAD CAM software to run it, my first purchase of Enroute Pro 8 years ago was £2500 which I stopped using after Win98. My collection now accounts for about £8000 plus a considerable investment in time to learn the software.

Running a CNC has additional costs, it is the same as running 4 machines at once, if it is not running (ie. a breakdown) an engineer is about £400-£600 per day.

Paul

 

[DangerousDave]

...customers don't seem to want woodwork, they want a statement. It's the woodworker's task to make that statement using as little material as possible and making as few cuts as possible in order to maximise profit.

Gill

I agree. The customer isn't only paying for the materials and workmanship. They are paying for a lifestyle statement; people want their homes to look like those featured in 'lifestyle' programmes on TV. There is also a certain amount of 'keeping up with the Jones' as far as furnishing their houses. If products are marketed with an emphasis on the lifestyle benefits in addition to the asthetic and functional qualities the customer may pay more. (just my thoughts, i'm not a pro)

 

[norman]

...customers don't seem to want woodwork, they want a statement. It's the woodworker's task to make that statement using as little material as possible and making as few cuts as possible in order to maximise profit.

Gill

I agree. The customer isn't only paying for the materials and workmanship. They are paying for a lifestyle statement; people want their homes to look like those featured in 'lifestyle' programmes on TV. There is also a certain amount of 'keeping up with the Jones' as far as furnishing their houses. If products are marketed with an emphasis on the lifestyle benefits in addition to the asthetic and functional qualities the customer may pay more. (just my thoughts, i'm not a pro)

Hi

Some years ago a friend who was a antique dealer found this out the hard way. On a visit to London to stay with some people was taken arround to visit and to be shown off by them. quiries as to valuations aplenty, all very very high prices paid buy them all. He went to Newark Fair and stocked up with the same range of items at the Trade fair prices thinking that he could offer them a lower price and still make a very good profit. Nobody was interested to save money or to buy as he didin`t have a "NAME" they could quote. compleat wast of time and money on his part.
It makes you think!! and wonder what it all about.

Regards
Norman

 

[big soft moose]

Bigsoft moose,

There are a few additions to your breakdown. The actual purchase of the CNC machine is pretty high plus the CAD CAM software to run it, my first purchase of Enroute Pro 8 years ago was £2500 which I stopped using after Win98. My collection now accounts for about £8000 plus a considerable investment in time to learn the software.

Running a CNC has additional costs, it is the same as running 4 machines at once, if it is not running (ie. a breakdown) an engineer is about £400-£600 per day.

Paul

Hi Paul - I realise that . I was reffering to prens assertion that he could make the letters with his scroll saw and router , rather than to the CNC process used by the site in question.

 

[joiner_sim]

I read the first page and I've go the general gist of this thread.....

Just so you all know, my boss charges £40 an hour labour to the customer, regardless of wether it is a hollow core interior door that needs resizing and re-lipping. Or if it is something like this arch https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26130 which actually took probably just over a days work which is 8 hours and 15 minutes a day. So the arch cost £326 at least before the materials, machining and painting was even thought of.

 

[Scrit]

Just so you all know, my boss charges £40 an hour labour to the customer, regardless of wether it is a hollow core interior door that needs resizing and re-lipping.

Not an untypical rate in shop fitting and the like these days, but a sole trader joiner would be unlikely to see such srates. Of that £40 the actual wage portion will only be about 1/3, a further third will probably be other fixed costs such as buildings, insurances, etc with 1/3 as profit. And on that basis the toy box would seem cheap in comparison!

Scrit

 

[dicktimber]

Best bet is to get them made in China for 2 pence a pop ........

And if you sell them in yen, you will be a millionaire in no time!!!!!

Mike

 

[andycktm]

Just bought some oak kitchen cupboard doors from B&Q.
Down from £35+ to £3 :shock: ,even two door pack fridge/freezer £3. :shock:
What do we think they cost B&Q?Have they made profit on £3 a door? :wink:
Either way the M.D.F stays on the shelf :lol:

 

[wizer]

There was a £41K table!

Was that the table in the middle room, centre piece of a small walkway? Oval Shaped? Bur inlay?

 

[big soft moose]

Just bought some oak kitchen cupboard doors from B&Q.
Down from £35+ to £3 :shock: ,even two door pack fridge/freezer £3. :shock:
What do we think they cost B&Q?Have they made profit on £3 a door? :wink:
Either way the M.D.F stays on the shelf :lol:

actually i doubt they did - but unsold stock (particularly if lines arent in demand) costs money to store - or more accurately expensive warehouse space could be better used to store goods more in demand

also things like this are often a loss leader to get joe public in store who then buys all manner of stuff with a higher profit margin.

 

[MikeG.]

Wizer,

I think that this is the table that GSoW was referring to........and lets be fair, £41,000 buys you not one but a pair of these!

http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/gallery_surfaces_girls.htm

I like lots of David Savage's stuff...........but not this.

Mike

 

[wizer]

Oh I thought it was I dining table a saw at the exhibition. Lolm and I fell in love and a replica will now be my only project next year project ! :shock:

 

[MikeG.]

I may well be wrong!