Which motor for 100mm cyclone?

[Grantx]

I'm looking to buy the cyclone separator from Axminster.
https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-craft-ac118ci-cyclone-interceptor-105844
Can anyone recommend a suitable centrifugal fan with motor?

There are these off ebay but I'm not sure of they are suitable. Cfm seems appropriate.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Radial-B...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=707-127634-2357-0
Cheers.

 

[Inspector]

Radial/squirrel cage fans are not suitable for dust collection. Room filtration if not to restricted. They do not develop enough static pressure, suction, to overcome the resistance of a dust collector and especially a cyclone that adds more resistance to flow. The reason radial fans are used is because they can handle the impact of debris and they generate higher static pressures than the radial and axial (propeller) fans.

Pete

Adding that you should read Bill Pentz's site for a complete understanding as to the what and whys of dust collection. It is a long challenging read though.

In a nutshell. Dust Collection Basics
In detail. Dust Collection Research - Home

 

[Grantx]

Thanks. Any suggestions for the suction part? I plan on collecting the majority through the cyclone and venting the fine particulate outside.

Edit. Just started reading that article. Very interesting. Quite long will continue tomorrow.

Radial/squirrel cage fans are not suitable for dust collection. Room filtration if not to restricted. They do not develop enough static pressure, suction, to overcome the resistance of a dust collector and especially a cyclone that adds more resistance to flow. The reason radial fans are used is because they can handle the impact of debris and they generate higher static pressures than the radial and axial (propeller) fans.

Pete

Adding that you should read Bill Pentz's site for a complete understanding as to the what and whys of dust collection. It is a long challenging read though.

In a nutshell. Dust Collection Basics
In detail. Dust Collection Research - Home

 

[Inspector]

Hard for me to recommend something like that from here. If you are set on using the Axi cyclone in the first post I do not believe in them because of the 100MM inlet size. If you stick with and read all of Bill's website you will learn that it will not move enough air to capture the fines at the machine. A 150mm duct size is needed and to move enough air for it you will need a 4hp motor driving a 15" impeller. With a properly sized cyclone you could get away with a 3hp motor and a 14" impeller. Bill does have a spreadsheet that will provide the drawings for a good cyclone that you can make to match the motor/impeller. The ClearVue cyclones are Bill's design and have a proven track record but unfortunately they do not sell them in Europe.

Pete

 

[Fitzroy]

Cool that the eBay one has its curves. It’ll do 1800cfm at zero head. At 750Pa (generated pressure, let’s assume it’s the same on a vacuum, it’s not, it’s worse) it stops blowing. At max flow it uses 0.5kw. It’s a super low pressure, high volume device.

By comparison a similar sized cyclone dust extractor, will generate 1350Pa of vacuum (about -1/10th of an atmosphere) and runs 1.5kw.

 

[JoshD]

Hi, prompted by @Inspector I decided to take a look at Bill Pentz's site. What a fantastic resource! I'm planning a new build workshop for the autumn and reading Bill's material has completely upended my plans for dust collection: I was previously thinking of some super-duper cyclonic device (like the Laguna cflux/pflux) indoors, but now I realise that outdoor venting is the most essential thing. My revised thinking was to go for a ~3hp bog-standard 30micron bagging machine in a wooden acoustically insulated enclosure outside; but I am also considering what the OP has in mind, viz a cyclone indoors with direct venting outside of the residue. I did find two cyclones available-ish over here with 150mm ports: the Dust Deputy SuperXL from toolovation (looks appealing but is out of stock); and the MegaMaxx UK™ Woodworking Dust Extraction Cyclone & Wood Chip Collector from indooroutdoors.co.uk. But I don't know how well these will work, and if they work poorly (or I forget to empty the bin) I'll end up spraying wood chips into the neighbours garden. If I've understood correctly then there's also the energy overhead of driving stuff through the cyclone, which means I need more horsepower, not to mention keeping the explosion risk outdoors .... but if @Grantx or anyone else from round here makes it work I'd certainly be interested to know ....

 

[Grantx]

I read through that article and it completely changed my understanding. The Numatic vacuum working through a cyclone does an absolutely fantastic job. It handles the cnc, table saw, mitre saw, etc..Its that fine dust particulate that gently settles everywhere that is the problem. So I have purchased a fan to exhaust it all out the door and so far it works amazingly well:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00VG7SJ3Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
How do I know it's working without an air quality meter? I use compressed air and get into all the nooks and crannies, up into the rafters etc.. and blow all that fine settled dust into a thick hazy maelstrom of carcinogenic peril. If I stand at a certain angle I can see it all getting pulled towards the stream of air blowing out the door. Within 5 minutes the air is clear.

Winter is coming though. To stand in a breeze at sub-zero temps is going to take a serious stiff upper lip what what.

 

[Inspector]

Hi, prompted by @Inspector I decided to take a look at Bill Pentz's site. What a fantastic resource! I'm planning a new build workshop for the autumn and reading Bill's material has completely upended my plans for dust collection: I was previously thinking of some super-duper cyclonic device (like the Laguna cflux/pflux) indoors, but now I realise that outdoor venting is the most essential thing. My revised thinking was to go for a ~3hp bog-standard 30micron bagging machine in a wooden acoustically insulated enclosure outside; but I am also considering what the OP has in mind, viz a cyclone indoors with direct venting outside of the residue. I did find two cyclones available-ish over here with 150mm ports: the Dust Deputy SuperXL from toolovation (looks appealing but is out of stock); and the MegaMaxx UK™ Woodworking Dust Extraction Cyclone & Wood Chip Collector from indooroutdoors.co.uk. But I don't know how well these will work, and if they work poorly (or I forget to empty the bin) I'll end up spraying wood chips into the neighbours garden. If I've understood correctly then there's also the energy overhead of driving stuff through the cyclone, which means I need more horsepower, not to mention keeping the explosion risk outdoors .... but if @Grantx or anyone else from round here makes it work I'd certainly be interested to know ....

Josh here is an Australian forum with a lot of expertise in the dust collection section that is unequaled. Start reading from the top and work your way through the threads.

MikeK a moderator here, has experience with the Dust Deputy series cyclones and is probably the best person here to ask about them.

Pete

 

[Lonsdale73]

I'm looking to buy the cyclone separator from Axminster.
https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-craft-ac118ci-cyclone-interceptor-105844
Can anyone recommend a suitable centrifugal fan with motor?

There are these off ebay but I'm not sure of they are suitable. Cfm seems appropriate.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Radial-B...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=707-127634-2357-0
Cheers.

Should have got in sooner - these have just had a massive hike in price!

 

[harryc]

Realistically how many hobby woodworkers can afford these 6” plumbed in extraction systems powered by 4hp extractors!

I have a 4” cyclone connected To a twin motor yorkleen.
I also have a record fine air extractor but I always make sure I use a mask.

 

[Inspector]

Harry it is a decision each person has to make for themselves based on their perceived tolerance and acceptance to dust, the space they have, their machines and the type of work they do, their ability to fund it.

You are wearing a mask, hopefully for at least an hour after the dust making so the air clears and are good with that. Lots of people don't wear masks and don't realize there is potential harm until it is too late. Listening to the sales pitch can get you in trouble because the stores have to sell product so they will always have "just the right collector" no matter what. At least if a woodworker is informed they can make the right decisions to protect themselves instead of working in blissful ignorance with a "just what you need" machine pitched to them without knowing the limitations of it.

Sometimes it is also the priorities a person has. It is different here than where you live but I know people with expensive cars, cabin at a lake, ski boats, jet skis, snow mobiles, motor homes to vacation in Arizona in the winter, etc and they have no problem with getting a $4,000 to $6,000 wood lathe but cheap out and buy the smallest, cheapest dust collector they can find because they don't want to spend the money and are perplexed as to why there is dust all around them. I wish I had gone big from the start rather than work up from a shop vac, to a bagger and so on.

Pete

 

[MikeK]

Realistically how many hobby woodworkers can afford these 6” plumbed in extraction systems powered by 4hp extractors!

I have a 4” cyclone connected To a twin motor yorkleen.
I also have a record fine air extractor but I always make sure I use a mask.

I'm a hobby woodworker with a fully-enclosed basement shop, which was designed around a dust extraction system. At the time, I used a 3HP blower assembly, Oneida Super Dust Deputy Steel 5-inch cyclone, two Wynn MERV-15 canister filters, a 35-gallon plastic bin, and 120mm steel ducting with blast gates.

This is the enclosed dust extraction closet showing the heart of the system.

This are some images of the ducting as I was building the shop.

I am confident that my dust extraction system can be better, so I am replacing the 5-inch steel Super Dust Deputy (SDD) with the 6-inch Oneida Super Dust Deputy XL (SDD-XL). The 5-inch SDD is designed for blowers up to 3HP, while the SDD-XL is designed for blowers rated for 3-5HP. I will also be replacing the 120mm ducting with 160mm ducting and will only reduce to the machine port at the machine.

I bought my SDD-XL from Toolovation, and Martin was great to work with. Since the SDD-XL is larger than the SDD, I had to build a custom 35-gallon box using 19mm plywood. The platform holding the SDD will be lowered since I can't raise the blower assembly, so the plastic bin will be excess.

I will also take the time to fix design errors in my system and hopefully improve the flow.

 

[harryc]

I'm a hobby woodworker with a fully-enclosed basement shop, which was designed around a dust extraction system. At the time, I used a 3HP blower assembly, Oneida Super Dust Deputy Steel 5-inch cyclone, two Wynn MERV-15 canister filters, a 35-gallon plastic bin, and 120mm steel ducting with blast gates.

This is the enclosed dust extraction closet showing the heart of the system.

This are some images of the ducting as I was building the shop.

I am confident that my dust extraction system can be better, so I am replacing the 5-inch steel Super Dust Deputy (SDD) with the 6-inch Oneida Super Dust Deputy XL (SDD-XL). The 5-inch SDD is designed for blowers up to 3HP, while the SDD-XL is designed for blowers rated for 3-5HP. I will also be replacing the 120mm ducting with 160mm ducting and will only reduce to the machine port at the machine.

I bought my SDD-XL from Toolovation, and Martin was great to work with. Since the SDD-XL is larger than the SDD, I had to build a custom 35-gallon box using 19mm plywood. The platform holding the SDD will be lowered since I can't raise the blower assembly, so the plastic bin will be excess.

I will also take the time to fix design errors in my system and hopefully improve the flow.

Lol Mike that is exactly what I was talking about your set up is beyond the price range for most weekend warriors.

 

[harryc]

Harry it is a decision each person has to make for themselves based on their perceived tolerance and acceptance to dust, the space they have, their machines and the type of work they do, their ability to fund it.

You are wearing a mask, hopefully for at least an hour after the dust making so the air clears and are good with that. Lots of people don't wear masks and don't realize there is potential harm until it is too late. Listening to the sales pitch can get you in trouble because the stores have to sell product so they will always have "just the right collector" no matter what. At least if a woodworker is informed they can make the right decisions to protect themselves instead of working in blissful ignorance with a "just what you need" machine pitched to them without knowing the limitations of it.

Sometimes it is also the priorities a person has. It is different here than where you live but I know people with expensive cars, cabin at a lake, ski boats, jet skis, snow mobiles, motor homes to vacation in Arizona in the winter, etc and they have no problem with getting a $4,000 to $6,000 wood lathe but cheap out and buy the smallest, cheapest dust collector they can find because they don't want to spend the money and are perplexed as to why there is dust all around them. I wish I had gone big from the start rather than work up from a shop vac, to a bagger and so on.

Pete

I fully appreciate what you are saying Pete and of course there is nothing more important than your health but if its a choice of not being able to afford £thousands on extraction v a compromise which has a marginally higher absolute risk of lung damage then then I will take that risk or I would never leave my house lol.

 

[MikeK]

Lol Mike that is exactly what I was talking about your set up is beyond the price range for most weekend warriors.

I fully appreciate what you are saying Pete and of course there is nothing more important than your health but if its a choice of not being able to afford £thousands on extraction v a compromise which has a marginally higher absolute risk of lung damage then then I will take that risk or I would never leave my house lol.

When I decided I wanted to build a shop as my retirement hobby, the two-car garage was my first attempt. This didn't work out well since I still needed to fit a pair of Ford Mondeos in it when I wasn't using the shop equipment. All of the equipment had to be mobile and fit in any space available when not in use. Within a few months, I abandoned the garage idea and began planning on a basement shop.

Since the basement is fully enclosed, anything that happens there affects the rest of the house and occupants. Dust extraction and collection was the starting point, and if I couldn't design a suitable system that wouldn't expose my family to the dust, then I wouldn't have a shop and would have to go to my second retirement hobby choice...a Swedish au pair.

In addition to the main dust extraction, I also have a Record Power AC400 filter and a Dylos DC1700 air quality monitor. In most days during the summer, my shop has cleaner air than the main living area on the ground floor. The Dylos doesn't distinguish between pollen and wood dust, a particle is a particle, and the summers here can be brutal with pollen.

 

[JoshD]

@MikeK your revised setup looks the biz to me. did you consider unfiltered venting outdoors rather than having filters downstream of cyclone, or do you have any views on that? And where should I be looking for a 3-5hp blower unit (without all the other gubbins) to drive a 150mm cyclone?

@Inspector thanks for giving me even more reading! All looks good stuff but suffering from brain overload right now ...

 

[MikeK]

@MikeK your revised setup looks the biz to me. did you consider unfiltered venting outdoors rather than having filters downstream of cyclone, or do you have any views on that? And where should I be looking for a 3-5hp blower unit (without all the other gubbins) to drive a 150mm cyclone?

Venting outside was never an option for me because the shop part of my basement is entirely below grade. My house is about 12 years old and fairly airtight, so even if I had the possibility to vent outside, running the dust extractor would require one or two open windows somewhere in the house to provide a source for the air being vented outside. In the winter, I would be dumping a lot of heated air outside.

I bought the 2HP Bernardo DC 300 for my garage shop. When I abandoned the garage option in favor of the basement shop, I was going to throw away everything except the blower assembly. Then I found the 3HP Bernardo RV 350 blower on its own and made an arrangement with a Bernardo vendor to exchange the unopened DC 300 for the RV 350.

 

[JoshD]

Venting outside was never an option for me because the shop part of my basement is entirely below grade. My house is about 12 years old and fairly airtight, so even if I had the possibility to vent outside, running the dust extractor would require one or two open windows somewhere in the house to provide a source for the air being vented outside. In the winter, I would be dumping a lot of heated air outside.

I bought the 2HP Bernardo DC 300 for my garage shop. When I abandoned the garage option in favor of the basement shop, I was going to throw away everything except the blower assembly. Then I found the 3HP Bernardo RV 350 blower on its own and made an arrangement with a Bernardo vendor to exchange the unopened DC 300 for the RV 350.

Thanks! V useful

 

[Inspector]

Josh you have the option of exhausting the air outside and diverting through filters when it becomes too cold if you have easy access to the outside and space inside for filters. A bit more complicated but not insurmountable.

Don't rule out a 220V delta three phase motor (or one that can be converted) if you come across a blower assembly with one. You can power it from your single phase through a variable frequency drive (VFD). It gives you the ability to power up over a few seconds reducing the current inrush if you have marginal power and to turn the motor a little faster to 60hertz, getting as much as 20% increase in airflow. It also lets you turn it down for machines like a drill press that don't need the airflow of a thickness sander or wood lathe. It does make it a little noisier though.

I can keep you reading for the most of the winter if you like.

Pete

 

[Rorschach]

I run my cyclone on a 1hp DE, works alright for me.