Which joints to use?

[andy king]

Hi BigShot,

It shouldn't be a problem with the short grain if the unit isn't being moved, it's simply good practice to avoid short grain situations if possible.
Don't make the joint so tight that it has to be hammered in, that will likely break it away - a little bit of play to allow it to swell slightly as the weather changes may help prevent it splitting away as well, but a joint that fits well by hand pressure alone should be your aim in any joinery work.

I would stick with 3x3 posts for the legs, that's more than man enough for the job, but if you choose to go for 4x2 as rails you have increased strength, plus you can now introduce a shoulderline and that immediately helps stiffen the framework and minimse racking.
If you are concerned about the frame deflecting in the middle, a stub leg will solve that problem.
Give me 10 mins and i'll do a sketch and scan it in - hopefully that may make more sense then...

cheers,
Andy

 

[andy king]

Sorry for the delay, the website seemed to be down for a few hours!
Anyway, sketch below which should give a rough idea of what i'm on about (hopefully!)

cheers
Andy
edit: Also, if you want to eliminate an exposed endgrain problem you could mitre the ends of the rails where they wrap around the post.
Might seem a bit excessive for a wood store, but only single cut to each end, so simple enough to do for extra peace of mind maybe...

 

[BigShot]

That's very kind of you Andy.
The attached image is what I'd drawn up last night while up into the wee small (and not so small) hours.

I may let the rails into the legs as you've shown instead whether I use 1"x4" or 2"x4", but before I make a decision I hope people can give a little input into this design.
I think the joinery should be obvious but if anything is unclear let me know and I'll provide detail.

It will most likely be clad on 3 sides with an as yet undetermined dimension of wood with gaps between all boards for airflow.

 

[BigShot]

Addendum:
Don't worry about the short boards that look unsupported, I've got a solution for them.
Also if it's not entirely clear, the long bottom rail at the front comes all the way through the upright and has a 2"x1" deep notch in the the top to take the 2"x1" side rail above it.

Again, I'm not wedded to the design so if you see any shortcomings, don't hold back.

I'm particularly interested as to whether the dimensions I've chosen are likely to be enough.
In that picture:

Uprights = 3"x3"
Lower long rails = 4"x1"
Everything* else = 2"x1"

* not the floorboards, also the beads holding the dividing wall slats in place are a 2"x1" ripped to 1"x1" ish.

 

[srp]

For what it's worth I tend to agree with Jacob - the fewer the joints the better. I made a copy of a 1920's garden gate not long ago, and all the rot in the original had occured in the joints. Any joint in exterior joinery is going to open and close all through the year and hold water most of the time. Simple lap joints, coach bolts and penny washers where you need real strength, otherwise screws or nails. Don't bother with glue, waste of time and money. When finished, stand the legs on quarry tiles, which are non-porous and the top surface has a slight crown on it to shed standing water and keep the feet dry(er).

 

[Jacob]

Over engineered IMHO. Well you said it!
Housing joints unnecessarily complicated for an outside log store and not as strong as lapped and nailed.
I'd just full lap them all, no material removal needed. The short bottom one could come above and over the long one - there nothing in the design to say they should have top edge in same plane.
The top (end) horizontal is redundant, as you have a kind of barge board piece just above it, which also could be lapped. Braces lapped, divider boards lapped. All nailed with a few through bolts at the main joints.
Sizes - most of the load is on the floor so you might need a half brick or two under in the middle to stop it sagging.
Otherwise it depends on your logs and how you stack them.

 

[andy king]

Housing joints unnecessarily complicated for an outside log store and not as strong as lapped and nailed.

Are you saying that a board clapped against a post and nailed is stronger than a housing when placed under direct loading Jacob? You need to go back to college.
The sketch i did gave not only a positive structural joint to deal with any load issues, but by opting for a 4x2 section, the shoulder also gives it additional strength against racking.
Not 'unecessarily complicated' in any way shape or form, its good solid traditional joinery - something you bang on about constantly.
Whether the OP wants to take it as good advice or not, or chooses to over complicate with additional or more complex work is another story.
Nothing complicated about a few housings for most woodworkers I would think.
Make it out of tanalized stock and coat the newly cut joints with cuprinol before assembly and keep it well maintained with suitable exterior coatings and the rot issues are addressed as well - water has more chance of getting down the back of a face nailed rail than a flush fitted joint from my experience.

Andy

 

[Jacob]

....
Are you saying that a board clapped against a post and nailed is stronger than a housing

Yes if you also put a bolt through

......
Not 'unecessarily complicated' in any way shape or form, .....

Lots of housings to cut, and they have to be accurate or they are pointless.

 

[andy king]

Good grief - it's a woodwork forum!!! 'It's not about the tools' as was one of your taglines, along with 'do some woodwork' as one of your favourite comments.
Stop picking holes in sound advice from people who give up time to give it and stop treating people with such disdain all the time.

Andy

 

[BigShot]

Wow.
If I'd know I'd have popped some corn (melted butter and a bit of sugar for flavour) before popping on to read.

For the record I appreciate all the advice I've been given so far.

Can we just clarify that when we're talking about "lap joints" we're talking about a full with no cuts made to receive other members?

The main reason I've been thinking about removing material to let members into others and keeping the lower side rails flush with the long ones is that every lap I make to the inside will reduce the capacity for storing wood to some degree, and laps to the outside will mean the cladding going further out (with difficulties fixing them in place) increasing the volume of the store - which can't really be any bigger than I've designed it due to space restrictions and movement around it.


I'm getting a lot out of this thread, and while I don't want to stand in the way of a good shouting match - I'm partial to them myself sometimes (had one today as it happens) - I'd just appreciate it if you could keep the slanging in the area of my woodstore and how you see it would best be built. I know it's horribly selfish, but I'd like to keep learning things from this.

 

[Jacob]

Good grief - it's a woodwork forum!!! 'It's not about the tools' as was one of your taglines, along with 'do some woodwork' as one of your favourite comments.
Stop picking holes in sound advice from people who give up time to give it and stop treating people with such disdain all the time.

Andy

Er....what are you talking about? I seem to have missed something.

 

[Jacob]

.....
Can we just clarify that when we're talking about "lap joints" we're talking about a full with no cuts made to receive other members?

Yes

The main reason I've been thinking about removing material to let members into others and keeping the lower side rails flush with the long ones is that every lap I make to the inside will reduce the capacity for storing wood to some degree, and laps to the outside will mean the cladding going further out (with difficulties fixing them in place) increasing the volume of the store - which can't really be any bigger than I've designed it due to space restrictions and movement around it.

Hmm. Makes sense only if you plan to keep your log store packed tight with logs all the time; to be realistic the volume taken up by the absence of housing is only going to be equivalent to a few logs isn't it?

PS and anyway you need a bit of an air gap (if the thing is against a wall).

 

[MickCheese]

BigShot

I think you have been given lots of good advice from all quarters here. It just goes to show 'there is more than one way to skin a cat'.

Although I did suggest housing joints there are real merits in Jacobs and others wisdom, after all a lot of those actually do this for a living.

So it really comes down to how you wish to proceed, I don't think either is wrong and both can be right.

Would be very interested in how you decide to proceed and a some photo's as you go along are always welcome.

Best of luck.

Mick

 

[Jacob]

.....
So it really comes down to how you wish to proceed, I don't think either is wrong and both can be right.....

Absolutely.
It's only a wood store but I've been down this path before, where I've been considering every possible detail. You can end up say, designing a bird table and wondering about the weight of bird seed!* Quite right too (in theory) but eventually you have to converge on the job in hand - then some of your careful considerations have to be thrown out!

*PS or looking for blue tit stats. :shock:

 

[MickCheese]

.....
So it really comes down to how you wish to proceed, I don't think either is wrong and both can be right.....

Absolutely.
It's only a wood store but I've been down this path before, where I've been considering every possible detail. You can end up say, designing a bird table and wondering about the weight of bird seed! Quite right too (in theory) but eventually you have to converge on the job in hand - then some of your careful considerations have to be thrown out!

I totally agree.

I have, in the past, done loads of research, loads of 'thinking', and spent ages mulling over different options only to actually get the wood in my hands and go for the simplest option as it 'just looks and feel right'.

Sometimes there is nothing better than just 'winging it' on a simple project.

Mick

 

[andy king]

Good grief - it's a woodwork forum!!! 'It's not about the tools' as was one of your taglines, along with 'do some woodwork' as one of your favourite comments.
Stop picking holes in sound advice from people who give up time to give it and stop treating people with such disdain all the time.

Andy

Er....what are you talking about? I seem to have missed something.

No Jacob, you haven't.
You seem to be, as usual, commenting more for reaction than advice - you are the one who constantly tell people to 'practice practice practice' when they are asking about woodwork and here's a great example of an opportunity to do so. A simple woodstore it may be, but if you want to do a job that gives that practice, introduces simple but strong joints and helps to understand how a joint works, here it is.
Nailing a few boards isn't exactly advocating your own advice is it?!!
As you should know, introducing a shoulder to a joint immediately introduces additional strength against racking and a housed in joint will be stronger than a mechanical joint under direct weight load. Perhaps you don't.
I'll do the same as you and offer you some of your own 'advice' - Don't be lazy, look around, there's plenty of information out there. Let us know how you get on.
Incidentally, introducing a top brace also ensures the posts remain parallel as they are marked with the bottom rail as a pair rather than having to rely on the rafter to do the job - it allows the end frames to be made up as a pair and then joined with the rails in a simple fashion. Common sense really. I thought you would have understood that if nothing else.

Andy

 

[BigShot]

Thanks all for your comments. With regards to thinking it to death and not doing it, fear not, I'm off out to buy the wood in the next hour and will be building it in the next couple of days. I'm trying to be efficient with my wood-buying so am drawing up a cutlist to minimise waste. That won't leave me too much room to over-think things when it comes time to just get on with it.


SRP - sorry I didn't reply sooner. I've been thinking what, if anything, I should stand it on. I'll see if the merchant has some quarry tiles when I go there later. It sounds like that might be just what I need.


Andy - I have been looking at this as an exercise in basic joinery in a job where some rather "rustic" looking joints wouldn't look out of place. That's why I originally thought about using mortise and tenon. I think I'd be better waiting until I have my workshop before getting so adventurous and so I like the idea of half lap joints and mitres for joinery purposes. I'll be buying enough wood to do either style (half lap or full lap). I'll decide which to go with later tonight.
Thanks for your comment about the top rail. I do intend including that one.
I was thinking of building the front and back sections and connecting them with the ends, but I have a feeling the other way around might be better. Something to consider anyway.


Mick - thanks for the comments.
I'll be posting a new thread starting with a link to this discussion and my final design in sketchup. I'll show some in-progress shots and the finished product.


Jacob - you're dead right that "it's only a wood store". I don't want to make it too difficult to build, but I also want it to last. It's looking like being about £60 to £80 worth of wood, which I know isn't expensive as projects go, but I don't want to have to try again if I make something that falls apart.
That's the main reason I'm asking so many questions. Because of my inexperience I'm trying to understand the different ways of building it and their pros and cons. If I go into this confident one way or the other I'll be happy with the result. If I go into it unsure, I'll dither, take too long, and ultimately end up with something I'm unhappy with that'll probably fall apart before long.

I don't think I'd go as far as calculating weight of bird seed, but I have calculated the likely weight of wood and run a quick calculation to make sure the rails won't sag too much under an unevenly stacked pile. (Each unsupported span of rail can be expected to carry 125kg of firewood as a uniform load - they have been calculated to 190kg to allow for uneven stacking.)

Hmm. Makes sense only if you plan to keep your log store packed tight with logs all the time; to be realistic the volume taken up by the absence of housing is only going to be equivalent to a few logs isn't it?

PS and anyway you need a bit of an air gap (if the thing is against a wall).

Yes, air gaps are needed. Considering our log length (10") and the space I have to put a store in, there's just enough room to pack in two rows of logs with an air gap between. The cladding will be slatted with 1" to 2" gaps to allow airflow around the back and sides and the whole store will be stepped off the wall enough to allow airflow and leave room for the mouse-guard I'll be fitting over the air brick behind the store (I'm trying to think of everything with this project ).
The volume taken up by lapping things to the inside (I'm thinking particularly about the back bracing here, not so much the lower side pieces) could be the difference between stacking both rows of logs with end grain facing the front of the store, and having to turn one row sideways which would not only reduce capacity, but would almost certainly be unstable too.