Where to make a living making hand-made?

[Bedrock]

I was prompted into starting this query by a recent blog by Richard Maguire on the subject of poor profitability, particularly in making small items like boxes, needing a lot of handwork.

I was talking at the end of last year to an ex-pat Australian baker, working in England, who reckoned that for most craft workers, it was easier to make a decent living in Australia than the UK, without taking on board teaching courses.
This could have something to do with costs of property, differing costs of living or simply that customers in Australia are more prepared to pay a realistic value for hand-crafted work.

I think that Charles Stanford and DW alluded to their situation in the US in another blog, which seemed to suggest that maybe they found a similar situation to the UK.

Clearly, in the UK for a number of high end names, they are operating in a market sector where they can obtain a good return commensurate with the time and overheads, but for many, particularly those just starting out on a career in quality furniture making, it is obviously difficult to establish a clientele prepared to appreciate financially what they are making, and yet there seem to be an increasing number of young people starting out on their own.
I suspect that the majority of contributors here are amateur, as am I, but is it the case that for most professionals, they are just making a living doing something they love? Or where is it possible to make a comfortable living?

Regards Mike

 

[D_W]

My mother can paint folk art and make about 20 bucks an hour for her efforts, but that doesn't count show time. She was a teacher, and never had to do it full time, but she has done it for 30 years to what amounts to more than 1/2 of full time on top of a teaching job. It's not fine work, though. She is skilled at what she does (and quick), and there is a large market for it, but it wouldn't motivate many on here.

I live in an urban area, and there are a few studio makers, but I don't know what they actually do. I sold my table saw to one who was a designer and maker of modern items, and it sounds like the only fine work that really pays is if you can get yourself a list of clients who place conference room tables (and the work on them isn't always spectacular, but they go to a business and not an individual, so the level of scrutiny isn't quite as high).

I only personally know one person who can make fine things and who could choose to make them and charge a shop rate (George Wilson) and not teach someone. He had a museum salary job and never had to do it, but he is the finest maker and restorer of things that I have ever seen (I'm sure there have been many, but not many accessible to us like George is). George's ability to get work that pays well has to do with extreme talent and drive, and a list of clients that are well heeled - I don't think those clients would seek a young maker who didn't already have a large portfolio.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think it's hopeless for many who want to do fine work and make a steady living. If you wanted to start by doing furniture making, I'd suggest having a spouse with a good income and perhaps an inheritance.

I requested on another forum to find out if there was anyone making an unsubsidized living using only hand tools and teaching no courses, etc, and I got a lot of flak for that. What I found is that everyone who has paid a lot of money for someone's videos or to attend their courses sees that as an affront to their choice to choose a course with a certain person.

I did try to get George to post here, but no luck, I guess.

I personally couldn't begin to make anything anyone would pay a significant amount of money for. The only thing I've made more than one of is planes (well, and kitchen cabinets, but they're not going to be done the way I did them):
http://s3.postimg.org/71f62gk03/20150926_143229_1.jpg

I know there's a market for planes, but I'd hate to have to try to figure out - you'd get 20 snide comments for every person who actually had an intent to buy anything. In every case, it's a matter of (furniture, too) sure, there's a legitimate effort made and it takes skill and even when people appreciate skill, they don't value it enough to pay for it.

(I thought I'd seen charlie mention elsewhere that he's a CPA and prepares tax forms - but I could be wrong. I also thought he sold furniture through etsy in vermont!!)

 

[Cheshirechappie]

To make a living using craft skills probably needs a bit of lateral thinking. Very few people make it by just setting themselves up as self-employed makers selling furniture, jewellery boxes and the like to the general public, but there is quite a steady demand for people with craft skills in the heritage sector. There are plenty of very good joiners about, but not many of them have the knowledge to refurbish or replace doors, windows and interior joinery of listed Georgian properties, for example (waves to Richard Arnold!). Likewise, bricklayers, plumbers (lead roof type, not plastic waste pipe type), plasterers, masons and so on. A few months ago, I read that there's a national shortage of thatchers, and trained clock repairers have more work than most can deal with; there's always room for more.

A former next-door neighbour gave up a steady job in a timber merchants to fit out canal boats. He's now got more work than he can handle. Trades like wheelwrights are in demand, even such arcane trades as steam locomotive boilersmiths - and in the wood trades, there are many wooden-framed railway carriages all needing regular maintenance and periodical rebuilding, windmills and watermills needing attention, and so on.

I don't think it's always easy to make good money following trades such as these, but a living can be made. Finding the right niche and gaining the skills and experience is sometimes more a matter of luck and happenstance than design, but it is possible to make a life for oneself with determination. Good craftspeople don't go on for ever, so there's always a need for apprentices and new entrants. Just don't expect to make a fortune.

 

[MIGNAL]

Let's face it. The demand for those type of trades people is miniscule. You soon find out that if there's a shortage, providing the pay is half decent (not necessarily good) there's soon a rush of people trying to fill the niche.

 

[Zeddedhed]

Personally I think you can make a living selling more or less anything more or less anywhere (with obvious exceptions of course)

The key seems to be marketing/branding.

I have two mates in Vancouver, both making furniture and wooden items.

One has spent a considerable amount of time and effort researching the market, looking at the competition and developing a brand. He sells his stuff in a very classy and exclusive but 'rustic' setting and is making a good living.

The other is actually a better maker but refuses to 'play the game'. He bores his clients senseless with stuff they don't care about (the relative merits of half blind dovetails etc etc) and barely breaks even. He considers it a rip-off to charge more than a combination of materials + labour.

Just saying.....

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Let's face it. The demand for those type of trades people is miniscule. You soon find out that if there's a shortage, providing the pay is half decent (not necessarily good) there's soon a rush of people trying to fill the niche.

There are far more of them than self-supporting designer/makers. The British Horological Institute list of fully qualified watch and clock repairers is several hundred strong, and they're very keen to encourage more. Add up all the specialist tradespeople looking after listed buildings and heritage items of one sort or another, and it would probably amount to several thousand in the UK - miniscule compared to (say) shop assistants or council diversity co-ordinators, but still a fairly sizeable number.

 

[MIGNAL]

That only tells us the opportunity for new entrants is extremely limited. Not impossible of course but extremely difficult.
I have a little experience in the crafts. I know 12 people who tried to make it as musical instrument maker/repairers. Half of them went through 3 year courses. Not one of them is employed in that field today. Not one of them is employed in a related field. The only reason that I'm still going is because I'm effectively subsidised. I really should have packed it in years ago. Any other sane person would have.

 

[custard]

Here's what I've found as a full time furniture maker.

I can make a gross profit of roughly £25k a year (that's after raw materials and minimal marketing costs but before deducting any fixed overhead) without too much difficulty and with the majority of my output being individual pieces of commissioned furniture. Because my overheads are very low (public liability insurance and some accountancy fees; but no vehicle costs, workshop rent, or capital equipment loans) I judge that as acceptable. If I took on more joinery packages/fitted kitchen work I could probably take that up to at least £35k. But that would mean far less furniture making and I might need more space than the 80 sq metre workshop that's currently rent free because it's on my property.

Work comes from word of mouth, an existing client base, displays in a couple of local interior design/top end furniture shops, relationships with local builders and architects, exhibiting at a couple of big county shows each year, and selling my socks off to pretty much everyone I meet! I'll almost certainly start a web site next year, although to be honest I'm not entirely sure why beyond the fact that it's what everyone seems to expect. I'm based in a relatively wealthy part of the South East and almost all my output goes to well-off private clients or London based corporate clients.

A more rigorous analysis would say I'm fooling myself, that if I applied market rates to resources like a workshop that I get effectively for free then I'd be struggling to hit minimum wage.

I can't argue with that, in fact it pretty much takes us to the bottom line. Which is that you can just about put food on the table with your income from bespoke furniture, but you're not going to cover a mortgage (at least not a South East mortgage, and I don't know where you'd find the clients if you were based in a more rural or more economically challenged part of the country). So furniture making is basically a vocation that's only open to people with an early retirement pension, or an understanding partner in a proper job, or people who bailed out of a city career, or Viscount Linley!

The other possibilities are blending furniture making with something a bit more reliable and lucrative like joinery packages (which often squeezes out the furniture making over time); combining making with teaching (there seems to be an explosion of this at the moment...I wonder where the saturation point is?); or at least defraying overhead in a shared workshop (but I regularly hear about furniture making partnerships that have blown up, usually because of tiny niggles that became irreconcilable differences).

To use that horrible expression, bespoke furniture making is a "lifestyle choice". You do it because you love it, and in the full knowledge that anyone with the skills necessary to make it fly could always earn more doing something else. Furthermore, from what I hear I'm pretty sure those same ground rules apply all around the western world. Believe me, if furniture makers were making pots of money in Australia or anywhere else then the ships would soon be packed with hopeful migrants carrying big boxes of tools!

 

[dzj]

I come from an "economically challenged" country, but the situation is more/less the same.
I prefer making furniture, but to make ends meet you have to be a bit of an "omnivore".
Not owing money to the bank and owning my workshop helps a lot.
Being in my fifties now, I don't really spend much on anything anymore...
When I began my WW career there were no PVC doors or windows, IKEA and the likes weren't that prevalent
and finding work wasn't hard.
Nowadays, I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of someone starting out.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I remember reading about 25yrs ago in one of the woodworking mags about a guy who was running his own 'shop, and how he had to charge £20 p.h. (iirc - it may have been £25). This was followed by a letter accusing said person of everything short of grand larceny. It was followed the month after by an in depth breakdown of the guy's business and accounts, starting with the 20% - 25% of his working hours that were spent seeing prospective customers, sourcing materials, sharpening and maintaining tools etc. that were not directly chargeable, his rent, rates, insurances etc. - which showed ultimately that he would have been (much) better off working for someone else.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I vaguely recall an article - in fine woodworking probably - about making a career of it, with contributions from people who had. One of them said this: "whenever I pick up a hand tool, I'm losing money".

I asked on my forum if it were possible to make a living from heritage crafts. Robin Wood (pole lathe bowl turner and chair of the Heritage crafts association) said he did (before he started teaching courses) but I think he is exceptional in ability and energy !

 

[deserter]

I think the problem with s lot of crafts, and I must add the caveat that I'm not getting at or saying this is wrong, but in most crafts especially the woodworking ones box making, turning etc. The market is saturated with hobbyists and retired people whom are happy to just recoup costs for pieces. So if the bowl costs £6 for the blank and takes an hour to produce, they would charge maybe £8 - £10 for the finished item where as a professional would have to charge at least £25 probably more. It leaves the professionals with no chance to make casual income and in these niches bespoke isn't enough to run your business alone.

 

[bugbear]

I think the problem with s lot of crafts, and I must add the caveat that I'm not getting at or saying this is wrong, but in most crafts especially the woodworking ones box making, turning etc. The market is saturated with hobbyists and retired people whom are happy to just recoup costs for pieces. So if the bowl costs £6 for the blank and takes an hour to produce, they would charge maybe £8 - £10 for the finished item where as a professional would have to charge at least £25 probably more. It leaves the professionals with no chance to make casual income and in these niches bespoke isn't enough to run your business alone.

Certainly true of craft items, especially lathe work - wood turning is fun!

But I don't see many hobbyists making doors, windows or stairs, larger item of furniture.

With the emergence of CNC and/or laser cutting, I'd hate to try to make money with a scrollsaw today.

BugBear

 

[RobinBHM]

There is a very very small market for bespoke, individual pieces of free standing furniture for the domestic market.

There is certainly a market in the commercial sector, for reception desks, shopfitting, pubs, restaurants, banks, hotels etc

For woodworkers making a living in the domestic market, the biggest opportunities lie with the fitted market, in kitchens and bedrooms. And more recently in the Audi Visual wall systems.

It is now possible with the use of track saws for carpenters to make and install wardrobes and other carcase based work on site.

I also believe there is an expanding market for one man band CNC makers, operating small machines in their home workshop, although I can see this market becoming saturated

I originally trained by doing a degree in furniture production and management in High Wycombe in the late 1980's. In the town then were G-plan, Ercol, Parker Knoll, Glenister and others. These have all gone now. So even furniture manufacture in this country is a declining trade. Furniture has now become a mixture of disposable products such as Ikea, or bought in from China, Vietnam, Thailand, India etc by the container load. Suppliers will naturally seek out Third world labour rates, which are probably less than 5% of this country.

I started in business as a general joinery works, but it is very difficult to make money making the odd window here, a radiator cover there. so I've specialized in joinery, marketing and making orangeries, glazed lanterns, windows and doors.

It is possible to earn a living as a craftsmen making beautiful work in timer, but we need to be realistic and work in sectors that will have the demand and can afford the costs. Also making use of new technology.

 

[D_W]

I think the problem with s lot of crafts, and I must add the caveat that I'm not getting at or saying this is wrong, but in most crafts especially the woodworking ones box making, turning etc. The market is saturated with hobbyists and retired people whom are happy to just recoup costs for pieces. So if the bowl costs £6 for the blank and takes an hour to produce, they would charge maybe £8 - £10 for the finished item where as a professional would have to charge at least £25 probably more. It leaves the professionals with no chance to make casual income and in these niches bespoke isn't enough to run your business alone.

That leaves a pro doing work that an amateur can't do, or to a level that only a very knowledgeable customer will appreciate. There are still people making a living in the US doing trade carving, it's not easy for an amateur to pick that kind of stuff up and do it well - too much design and some people can never do it in general.

I think it's probably more useful for someone who is wanting to learn craft to get involved with a museum that has salary work, and build clientele on the side if you can do very fine work. If you can only do good work, then you at least have the museum salary to live on and resources to learn.

 

[D_W]

I vaguely recall an article - in fine woodworking probably - about making a career of it, with contributions from people who had. One of them said this: "whenever I pick up a hand tool, I'm losing money".

The author who said that probably isn't very good at using hand tools. Or is making bathroom vanities and kitchen cabinets and competing with commodity. I wouldn't many hand tools making kitchen cabinets or kitchen tables, either - but it would be hard to make something like a chest with carved elements without picking up some hand tools.

I tried to squeeze information out of warren mickley, who makes a living using no powered tools, and I get the sense that he does a lot of repair/restoration work because it pays better (and he lives in an area where there is a lot of older high quality work). He also mentioned getting jobs (no surprise) such as carving something decorative - the same thing over and over - in the end of 60 church pews.

I haven't seen much of what he does because he doesn't post pictures of much, but it sounds a lot more like doing what pays and a lot less of making a whole piece that you're inspired by.

Personally, I also think there's an element of folks who think they want to work by hand, but they find that they ultimately don't like the level of physical work and the time cost to do it sometimes. I would love to quit my job and make a plane a day by hand, but there's no market for me to do it, and no supply. And I think after a few months, I'd find that it would be very difficult for me to do physically. I don't think Larry williams would agree with me that he does little by hand, but I'd say they do little by hand (no mortising, and even the cut for the bed on a moulding plane is done by some jigged up machine, which is something that takes only a minute to do by hand - literally). It takes me an hour to mortise a bench plane now and cut the abutments, and I've only made 15.

What's the name of the guy in the UK who had benches priced well for the maker and who still felt that it's not what he wanted to do? We had something similar here, a sawmaker who was inundated with orders for extremely expensive saws, and he just wigged out and quit.

So, in the end, I guess the question is what kind of students do you ultimately want to have, and do you think you'll be able to sell videos of yourself doing things that people who really want to build could figure out on their own!! (hammer)

 

[Bedrock]

There is here I think what I call the "Ikea" effect, in that when it is possible to buy, say, a table and four chairs for £250, the threshold of price expectation is inevitably lower. The antique/second market has an impact in that it is possible to buy very well made second hand furniture for less than it would cost to make.

Deserter's comments are also relevant.

In the UK, a plumber or electrician will earn more than the average furniture maker, understandably so when their skills are essential, whereas bespoke furniture is a luxury.

It sounds as though the market in the US is similar, but it would be interesting to hear whether there is anywhere in the world where the situation is different.

I still find it puzzling that people with disposable income will pay significant sums for a painting, but not value a stunning table, cabinet or box, highly enough for the maker to enjoy a reasonably comfortable living. There must be some sort of mental conditioning which places a different evaluation on items which mostly have a functional use, as opposed to purely aesthetic. Back to paragraph 1?

Regards Mike

 

[heimlaga]

In the inland parts of northern Sweden where jobs are scarce one can buy a small farm with barns and fields and woodlands and all for 500000 kronor (should be somewhere arond 30000-40000 pounds) and where high quality timber is cheap and plentiful there are quite a few people making a significant part of their living from various crafts. There isn't much of a local market so they need to find buyers further south or in the cities.

However to make ends meet one must live a frugal and rather self reliant lifestyle. Log one's own firewood and repair one's own car and house and shovel 2 metres of snow with one's own 50 years old old farm tractor and take on occasional odd jobs when they can be found. Keep everythiong going on a shoestring budget and maybe prodice a part of one's own food. Hunt mosse in autumn and eat moose all winter.

The locals welcome thrifty and handy newcomers with the right "let's find a way to get the job done" attitude but they say that most newcomers don't have those qualifications. Those who move there just to get away from the stress of modern life rarely make it for more than a winter or maybe two.

 

[Mr Maguire]

Hi Bedrock,
I think you've answered your own questions in a very sensible way. You've identified that the plumber can sell himself easier due to his work being 'essential' and a painting can demand a price for being 'art'.
Handmade furniture is both, and therefore to most it is neither. 'Mental conditioning' is a good way to look at it for both yourself and your customers. If you want to convince somebody to buy an item for more than it's functional value, then you need them to connect with it either through branding or as art.
Very few people will pay more for an item simply because it is handmade, and in the same vein few people will buy an item because it will last longer (people are quite short sighted). But quite a lot of people will pay extra for something that is different, that they connect with personally and can't get elsewhere. This can be put across through branding, and it can also be put across through 'art'. You won't sell hand made to the masses, but with such a small output you don't have to.
This is a huge topic for discussion but I think ultimately it's down to the individual if it's going to work. If you just want to earn lots of money then you should look for a different career. If you want to explore your own craft and get paid to do it then it's worth a shot - if you have the right determination then you could make a big success of it. The difficulty in succeeding means that it isn't an overcrowded market.

D_W: I can't speak for anyone else but I know there's always going to be a lot more to someone's life decisions than 'just wigging out and quitting'. For myself, there's a huge amount going on that's influenced this decision, but if I was motivated solely by money then I'd continue to make workbenches daily, that would be the easier route.
With your own hand planes, you're clearly extremely passionate about making them so it's a shame that you feel there's no market - you might be surprised. The woodworking community are very supportive on the whole and you might find that there's people who would want to help you to get going. Quitting before you start, wouldn't that be wigging out?

Cheers,
Richard Maguire

 

[Trafalgar]

Alan Peters did joinery work, cabinets, doors, and other interior fittings early on in his solo career. One presumes that had he not been such a talented maker of standalone furniture he would have continued doing this sort of work if the latter had not taken off. And of course he never did his work on a hand tool only basis after he left Barnsley.

An awful lot of well-known makers in the U.S. have woodworking schools, or heavy teaching schedules at others' woodworking schools. I don't get the impression this isn't largely an economic necessity, but who really knows for sure?