What plane for rebating?

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Fromey

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I'd like a plane for rebating (including cross grained)...

To that end, I recently purchased an old Record 78, but I'm not enjoying the experience. Although I've read all the posts about how to set them up and sharpen the nicker, I'm still getting poor results. I suppose I should persist with my technique, but there are as many comments about how poor the plane is as there are about how good the plane is. Thus, I'm willing to count my losses (£30) and look elsewhere.

An old woddie moving fillister would be nice, but I'm rather cautious if I have to buy sight unseen.

The Veritas jack rabbet looks nice but too large and expensive for my needs.

The Veritas skew rabbet planes are a cheaper alternative, but still a bit pricey and truly specialised on rebating.

The Veritas skew block plane is at the price point I'm willing to consider. It also has the advantage of being usable for tenon truing and as a general block plane (although I already have a nice LN LA block). Having a fence is good. The only down side is that it doesn't have a depth stop (and at 15 deg instead of 30 deg skew, it may not be the best cross grain experience you can have).

Although I prefer the look of the LN no. 140 skew block plane (and it's slightly cheaper), I think the Veritas has the better design.

The LN no. 60 1/2RN rebating block plane is another option (cheaper, double sided, so can be used against the grain), but has no fence and isn't skewed. I have a QS rebating block plane already and know how tough it is on the hands if you do any significant amount of rebating with it. With the Veritas, having a slightly larger plane with a front tote should make a significant difference to ergonomics.


Thus, I was all prepared to pull the trigger on the Veritas skew block, when I remembered the ECE moving fillister.


I love my ECE scrub plane, so I'm happy with their build quality. It is the cheapest option and has a depth stop, but I have reservations about it not being a skewed blade and I suspect the fence is somewhat limited/awkward compared to the Veritas fence.

I've not been able to hunt down any reviews of the ECE moving fillister. Is anyone familiar with it and wiling to give an opinion? Or any general opinions on the above?

Thanks in advance
 
I'd recommend a cutting gauge for setting out (starting, realy...) cross grain rebates. Better than the built in nicker
of any rebate plane I've ever seen, and cheaper too.

BugBear
 
Thanks Bugbear. yes, I've come to that conclusion as well. However, doesn't the nicker help keep the wall of the rebate even once you start cutting down to depth? Or will a well set blade do that naturally?
 
Fromey":1ib0kekg said:
Thanks Bugbear. yes, I've come to that conclusion as well. However, doesn't the nicker help keep the wall of the rebate even once you start cutting down to depth? Or will a well set blade do that naturally?

Yes, it helps, but the top surface is the one you can see. :D

Similarly, but bottom surface of a rebate isn't even (normally) a glued surface, let along a show surface, so even a straight across blade doesn't leave a pretty result on cross grain work, it doesn't matter (much).

If you're using it to make raised panels, that's a different matter.

BugBear
 
I understand about the looks. I was think more along the lines of getting an accurate crisp side wall to a rebate so as to ensure a good fit with the mating piece. I imagine a nicker would aid this, although perhaps it should be viewed better as aiding someone's poor technique?
 
Depending on how often the job comes up, another approach to cross-grain rebates is to mark out, lightly chisel or pare a vee, and saw down the cross grain. Then split out the bulk of the end-grain waste with a chisel, and tidy up by paring or with a shoulder plane. Cross-grain housings can be worked the same way, using two sawcuts, chiseling out the bulk of the waste, and cleaning up with router plane.

The advantage is that the 78 will then probably be able to cope with long-grain rebating adequately enough.

It's amazing how much you can do with a few chisels in good order, once you've gained a bit of dexterity with them.
 
interesting fact: It takes a damn sight more skill and knowledge to tune up a woodie moving fillister than it does to cut a rebate.

:D

BugBear
 
I'm not sure if this helps, but in my limited experience, for a cross-grain rebate, a skew blade does makes it easier to work and leaves a smoother cut. However, it's hard to think of circumstances where the rebate will be a finished, show surface unless you are making fielded panels - most rebate surfaces are hidden inside joints aren't they?

I did a tiny comparison when I decided to work some cross-grain mouldings on my elaborate step chair project here which made me think that a wooden moving fillister is a nice plane to have but others also work.

They are not all equal though - I do have one that I bought cheap on ebay without realising that it had an undersized wrong iron in it :( . If you ever get to Bristol, Bristol Design normally have one or two on the shelf. (There used to be an old tools shop in Frome, but it closed down before I ever got to it.)

For rebates with the grain, don't neglect the old simple, cheap wooden rebate plane - which quite often do have skewed blades. And for a demonstration of how fast chisel work can be, have a look at Richard McGuire's inspirational video here: http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=1776.
 
Fromey":25kvr9yd said:
Thanks Bugbear. yes, I've come to that conclusion as well. However, doesn't the nicker help keep the wall of the rebate even once you start cutting down to depth? Or will a well set blade do that naturally?
You use the nicker as a marking gauge on the first pass and then retract it. Then you use the 78 just like any other rebate plane.
NB the 78 a brilliantly useful and versatile l bit of kit and much undervalued. It's the one first essential rebate plane everybody should have, before adding expensive shoulder planes etc. to the collection
 
As usual, thanks everyone for your time and advice.

Indeed Cheshirechappie and AndyT, I've cut rebates like that before. But as Richard McGuire points out in his video, a plane does make it quicker.

Unfortunately, I only get to Bristol about once a year (and make a pilgrimage to Bristol Design). Will have to consider if it's time again.

Thanks Jacob for that technique. I will definitely give it a go with my 78 and perhaps I needn't have to bin it after all.
 
Keep the Record 78 whatever you do. That is a perfectly good rebate plane once you get the hang of everything.
I suspect your problem might be caused by a carelessly ground blade. If the blade is ground a bit askew by misstake and the blade adjusted in the plane to make up for this error the side of the blade may make contact with the side of the rebate pushing the plane outwards a little for every cut as the rebate gets deeper. The rebate gets narrower towards the bottom and the side gets terribly uneven as the side of the blade scrapes along it for every cut.
Been there done that and learned a lesson.

For cross grain rebated I use a wooden moving fillister with a skew blade. My Stanley 78 isn't very good for cross grain work but it is very good for rebating along the grain.
 
heimlaga":zp0g015f said:
...... the side of the blade may make contact with the side of the rebate pushing the plane outwards a little for every cut as the rebate gets deeper. The rebate gets narrower towards the bottom and the side gets terribly uneven as the side of the blade scrapes along it for every cut......
If this happens it is no problem at all to turn the plane (or the workpiece) and finish by planing the other side of the rebate. In fact it's easier and quicker that way rather than hoping to cut a perfect rebate from one face only. It may mean just one tidying up pass. Same amount of wood removed whichever way you do it.
 
If your using the nicker of the 78, it needs to be fettled to allow its proper use. The nicker as it comes is too large and protrudes too far to give any satisfactory results. You will need to sharpen it and reduce its depth to allow it to cut properly (a little bit deeper than the maximum thickness if shaving you will ever take). The trouble is, that in doing so you have very little metal left for any re-sharpening.

I'm sure you probably have done this, but it's worth mentioning, on cross grain work, pull back the plane in the cut rather than lifting it out. This allows the nicker to bite down and make the score before you take the next shaving. The two forces of the nicker trying to cut as well as the blade will pull the plane out of alignment and cause an uneven wall.
 
deema":1sr79pcy said:
the nicker as it comes is too large and protrudes too far to give any satisfactory results. You will need to sharpen it and reduce its depth to allow it to cut properly (a little bit deeper than the maximum thickness if shaving you will ever take). The trouble is, that in doing so you have very little metal left for any re-sharpening.

Yes - the old nicker design of the woodies, the Lee Valley Skew or even the Record #50C (gasp!) allowed easier adjustment, retraction and longer life...

Hence the cheap/simple/common cutting gauge as part of the process when using a 78. Much easier.

BugBear
 
The 78 nickers, fence, depth stop, are add-ons which aren't absolutely essential for the use of the plane, but may come in handy, and get used in different ways. As a rule it's easier to rebate without them (once a cut is started) and just work to marks as you would with a woody skew rebate plane. The fence also functions as a cover for the exposed part of the blade which is a design detail not picked up by the competition (even the posh american ones), resulting in cut fingers (Derek Cohen can tell you all about it!)
 
Yes, I read in various sources (and so was well pre-warned) that the nicker on the 78 is it's weakest point. The single post fence and its grip seem to be the next two weakest points. I'll have a bit more of a fettle with the nicker and the blade and see if I can avoid being cut (to date I've never cut myself with a plane blade so I hope I haven't jinxed it now).
 
Fromey":1vu3uz5k said:
Yes, I read in various sources (and so was well pre-warned) that the nicker on the 78 is it's weakest point.
It's OK. It's what it is. If you want it to do something it can't then it's a weak point
The single post fence and its grip seem to be the next two weakest points. I'll have a bit more of a fettle with the nicker and the blade and see if I can avoid being cut (to date I've never cut myself with a plane blade so I hope I haven't jinxed it now).
Single post is perfectly OK and no problem. Half the time to adjust compared to double post - and it protects your fingers, unlike all the others. It's a good bit of design.
 
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