What is the definition of a Basement?

[Triggaaar]

I've googled basement definition, but results include "A complex of undifferentiated igneous and metamorphic rocks underlying sedimentary strata".

I'm after the definition from a building point of view, perhaps if there's anything in planning or building regs that defines what a basement is.

Does anyone have any info?


Thanks

(PS - don't worry about why, it's complicated )

 

[Dibs-h]

From a planning or BR perspective - definitive, I doubt it! Not unless you fill in a form and pay. :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basement - that's good enough for me.

HIH

Dibs

 

[treeturner123]

Hi,

You might find something under the government planning portal. I seem to remember that it had something to do with the angle that light came into a room but that was before the changes to the building regulations.

Phil

 

[Triggaaar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basement - that's good enough for me.

Hey Dibs. Sounds reasonable, but not good enough for me
I'll give the details later, but I'm wanting to see what I can learn before I add info that might bias the answers.

You might find something under the government planning portal

Yeah I was hoping so, and I was thinking of calling the council tomorrow if I could find something on the planning portal first. I've not heard of the light thing, I didn't even know basements needed light.

 

[Noel]

A basement without a natural light source is a cellar, no?

 

[Triggaaar]

A basement without a natural light source is a cellar, no?

I don't know, I'm trying to find out if there's any definition. I couldn't find anything on the planning portal.

I'm wondering how much of the room needs to be below outside ground level (eg, is just a foot enough to call it a basement, or semi-basement) and does it matter whether or not there are stairs, or any rooms above it. For example:
You could have an enitre single story house built below ground level (in a garden with a sedum roof) - would that be a basement, or not because there are no rooms above it.
You could have a house built into a hill where one side is completely above ground, the other side is partly under ground - does that make the underground part a basement, or would there need to be stairs going down to the area to make it a basement?

Any ideas?

 

[RogerS]

Here you go

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publicati ... tbasements

EDIT: Ooops...that link says they pulled it and are working on a definition

 

[Jacob]

I don't think there is a fixed definition of a basement. It usually means useful spaces, rooms, etc, which are partly or wholly below ground level, but accessible from the outside.
Underground with access only from inside usually means "cellar" - but some cellars have coal holes, windows, etc.
The only definite thing is that you'd expect a basement or a cellar to be below the principle ground floor where the front door or main access is. Which means a basement could be all above ground in, say, a big house with the front door up some steps.

 

[Triggaaar]

EDIT: Ooops...that link says they pulled it and are working on a definition

Ah, shame, but thank you very much for the link. I think I'll try calling them.

The only definite thing is that you'd expect a basement or a cellar to be below the principle ground floor where the front door or main access is.

I'm thinking along those lines too, but I'm only guessing.

 

[RogerS]

Think we might be able to help more if we knew the context.

 

[Triggaaar]

Think we might be able to help more if we knew the context.

Ok

It's an insurance claim. The house is level with the outside ground at one side, but the ground slopes up, and at the other end of the house (the integral garage) the garden is a metre above ground floor level. The tanking in the garage has failed and has let damp through. In an attempt to get out of paying for a claim, the insurance company have said it is not covered because the garage is partly below ground and basements and semi-basements are not covered. It couldn't be more obvious to me that it is not a basement (there are no stairs down to it (there is one step, probably for building regs) and there are no rooms above it), but just writing that to them is not as helpful as if I had a definition of basements to give them. The insurance policy does not have a definition for what they mean by Basement (otherwise we'd go with that whatever it said), so we should go with the common definition, particularly if the council have one.

So, any ideas?

 

[RogerS]

They are trying it on but then you knew that. It will be a struggle but you should get there in the end even though you might have to complain to the Ombusdman whoever.

Basements are below ground. They are below the ground level entrance. Since I am assuming that you don't drive down into your garage and that the garage floor is level with the ground floor of your house - give or take a few inches - then only a money-grabbing, thieving, pustule-bursting, faecal-eating insurance company could suggest that it was a basement.

Quick Google came up with this https://www.nfipservices.com/DesktopDef ... 4#basement which is all about flood damage...basements of great interest there..so maybe worth another line of search?

EDIT: Just noticed this is a US site.

But these people might be able to advise http://www.thebswa.plus.com/case_studies.htm

 

[Triggaaar]

They are trying it on but then you knew that. It will be a struggle but you should get there in the end even though you might have to complain to the Ombusdman whoever.

Yes it might end up with the Ombudsman, but I thought I might find something that helps move the case on faster.

Since I am assuming that you don't drive down into your garage and that the garage floor is level with the ground floor of your house - give or take a few inches

From the road there is fair slope down the drive into the garage - it is about a metre below the garden level. The ground floor of the house is all on the same level and the garage is only about 6 inches below that.

Quick Google came up with this https://www.nfipservices.com/DesktopDef ... 4#basement which is all about flood damage...basements of great interest there..so maybe worth another line of search?

EDIT: Just noticed this is a US site.

Thank you for taking the time to help, I really appreciate it. That US definition was interesting, but I guess I need something British.

But these people might be able to advise http://www.thebswa.plus.com/case_studies.htm

Thanks, I've called them and got another number to try. I'm also trying the person that wrote the Approved Documents: Basements for Dwellings, which is a governemt planning document.

 

[Logos]

There is very little information about a proper working definition of what is a basement, not least because of the large number of variations. However the following may well be of help:

The Fire Precautions (Factories, Offices, Shops and Railway Premises) Order 1989
...
Interpretation
2.—(1) In this Order–
“the 1971 Act” means the Fire Precautions Act 1971;
“basement” means a floor (however described) immediately below the ground floor;

Ground floor is determined by reference to the highest undisturbed ground in the immediate vicinity. In your case, the insurance company is unreasonably insisting that the structure is a basement (or even a semi-basement - now that's a new term!) because part of the rear wall is covered by the ground. Even if a third of its height was totally below ground level it is still highly unlikely to constitute a basement because there is no ground floor. I hope this helps. Good luck.

Regards

Logos

 

[Triggaaar]

“basement” means a floor (however described) immediately below the ground floor
...
I hope this helps.

It does a bit, thank you very much. That's basically my interpretation of a basement - eg, IMO (and that definition) a single story building built completely below ground is not a basement. It's reassuring that something from gov.uk gives that interpretation. Ideally I'll find something from the planning section, as I think they would be the most relavent government body in this case.

Given the coversations I've had with the loss adjuster up until now, this feeble attempt at getting out of it is somewhat laughable. He knows we have a surveyor involved (the surveyor gave me their opinion, but didn't have a definition I could use). Perviously he attempted to say that garages and non-habitable rooms weren't covered - I pointed out the policy wording that said they were.

Thanks again.

 

[Jacob]

Think we might be able to help more if we knew the context.

Ok

It's an insurance claim. The house is level with the outside ground at one side, but the ground slopes up, and at the other end of the house (the integral garage) the garden is a metre above ground floor level. The tanking in the garage has failed and has let damp through. In an attempt to get out of paying for a claim, the insurance company have said it is not covered because the garage is partly below ground and basements and semi-basements are not covered. It couldn't be more obvious to me that it is not a basement (there are no stairs down to it (there is one step, probably for building regs) and there are no rooms above it), but just writing that to them is not as helpful as if I had a definition of basements to give them. The insurance policy does not have a definition for what they mean by Basement (otherwise we'd go with that whatever it said), so we should go with the common definition, particularly if the council have one.

So, any ideas?

Well it is on the way to being a basement. "Semi basement" seems pretty close. What does it actually say in the small print?

 

[Triggaaar]

Well it is on the way to being a basement. "Semi basement" seems pretty close. What does it actually say in the small print?

Just looking at the Policy, it doesn't have a definition of basement.

It's a Zurich Standard 10 new build policy, in case any of you no much about them.

 

[Dibs-h]

Ok

It's an insurance claim. The house is level with the outside ground at one side, but the ground slopes up, and at the other end of the house (the integral garage) the garden is a metre above ground floor level. The tanking in the garage has failed and has let damp through. In an attempt to get out of paying for a claim, the insurance company have said it is not covered because the garage is partly below ground and basements and semi-basements are not covered. It couldn't be more obvious to me that it is not a basement (there are no stairs down to it (there is one step, probably for building regs) and there are no rooms above it), but just writing that to them is not as helpful as if I had a definition of basements to give them. The insurance policy does not have a definition for what they mean by Basement (otherwise we'd go with that whatever it said), so we should go with the common definition, particularly if the council have one.

So, any ideas?

Well it is on the way to being a basement. "Semi basement" seems pretty close.

I'd be saying it's not a basement at all. What do the particulars (of when you bought the house) say? Do you have any sort of legal papers, copy of the deeds, survey or similar that gives a description of the property.

If only the back wall of the garage has the ground level higher (to 1m) and no other wall - I'd be referring to that as a retaining wall. Yes a basement also has retaining walls, but I'd be expecting more than 25% of the perimeter to be retaining. Way more than 1/2 to be honest.

Tell your Insurance company - to give you a definitive answer as to why they aren't paying out and kindly highlight the sections of the policy documents, etc.and supply definitions of the terms they are referring to, within a reasonable time frame - say 14 days.

After that - just refer it to the Insurance ombudsman. IIRC - once you refer it to them, the decision is binding tho.

One point to mention with any kind of insurance - the insurance company are there to generate profits for their shareholders and look after their interests - not yours!

HIH

Dibs

 

[Triggaaar]

What do the particulars (of when you bought the house) say? Do you have any sort of legal papers, copy of the deeds, survey or similar that gives a description of the property.

Yes I have it all - never any mention of basement.

If only the back wall of the garage has the ground level higher (to 1m) and no other wall - I'd be referring to that as a retaining wall.

The two adjacent walls would have been below the original ground level, but the front was turned into the drive, and the back was turned into a patio. The patio then has a retaining wall towards the high part of the garden, and the other side of the garden slopes down from the patio.

Tell your Insurance company - to give you a definitive answer as to why they aren't paying out and kindly highlight the sections of the policy documents

They've simply tried to give the reason as 'it's a basement, not covered' I'd like to give them some quotes as to why it's clearly not a basement, and tell them that we'll make a complaint and refer to the ombudsman if they don't agree - they may change their mind as they know they'll have to pay eventually, so it'll save time.

One point to mention with any kind of insurance - the insurance company are there to generate profits for their shareholders and look after their interests - not yours!

Yes I'm well aware of their motivation, even though they lie to you to pretend they're more than happy to pay anything that's covered.