Waterstone Advice!

[Dissolve]

I've now come to the conclusion that I'd like to finish my blades with an 8000 stone.

After grinding my initial/primary bevel, what grade of waterstone(s) would you use to create and hone the secondary bevel before final polishing on the 8000?

Seems like I could go with a 1000 and a 4000, or an 800 and 1200 etc but I don't know if two stones between grinding and final polishing is necessary?

Which stones would my money be best spent on?

 

[carlb40]

As you are jumping up to an 8000g, i would possibly add a 4000g. But first i would try the 8000g alone for the secondary bevel. See how long it takes to hone the bevel before purchasing an intermediate stone.

Also one thing to remember is the different makes cut at different rates. Which makes are you considering?

 

[mqbernardo]

as i said, these last days i´ve been usingva shapton pro 1000 (directly from a blue DMT), followed by a chosera 2000 and a naniwa snow white 8000. i can even skip the chosera 2000 if i don´t have it at hand. fast and good enough for me. gets that mirror polish, if you´re into that.

 

[Dissolve]

Currently it looks like I'm able to get a Bester 1000 grit, and I'm looking at the King/Ice Bear 4000 and 8000 stones. I can get a Naniwa "Superstone" 8000 grit for slightly more than the ice bear, are they better than the King/Ice Bear equivalents?

 

[MIGNAL]

Forget the 4,000 if you are using two bevels. No need for it. In fact I wouldn't bother with the 1,000G either. You need a fairly coarse stone for the primary - around 250G say, and the 8,000G waterstone will do the rest on the secondary. The good thing about a coarse stone is that it reestablishes the primary bevel quickly. It can also be used for small nicks. The same system might also work with diamond stones but I'm not sure how fast the very fine diamond stones cut.

 

[mqbernardo]

never used a king stone, but general opinion is they are softer and thus will need more frequent flattening. In my experience, Naniwa Superstones are kind of special, as they are not too fast (some might say slow, specially with alloyed steels) and very much prone to stiction issues (specially in the finer grits) but they do give you a very nice mirror polish. also, they only need a spritz of water, so there´s no soaking involved. the 8K SS in particular seems like it´s mostly burnishing the metal, not much happening and it clogs a lot. I used it next to a SS 5K, which worked (understandably) faster and the final result was a fine edge, but with the Snow White i get much faster results and the feel/feedback of the stone seems much more "tactile", for lack of a better word. Also there is less stiction than with the 8K.
Bottom line, i really can´t help you much on using the SS 8K on top of a King 4K, but i suspect it will take a while for the SS to abrade away all the scratches from the King 4K.
Of course if you´ll use the double bevel approach, there´s less stuff to worry about.

anyway, good luck.

 

[Wilco Flier]

Recently, I have bought a 400 and 1000 Naniwa waterstone. Since then, I had only a 4000 stone and a bench grinder, and that did the job as well, but the step from the bench grinder to the 4000 gritt stone was too big and it took me way too much time on the 4000 gritt stone to remove the scratches from the grinder. So I wanted a few steps in between and after some research I decided to buy the 400 and 1200. My idea of the 400 was that it was rough enough for quick reshaping damaged edges and flattening old chisels, but to me it is still quite fine. If I knew this before, I would have bought the 200 gritt stone. I think 1200 is a nice intermediate.

 

[Dissolve]

I've settled on a 1000/4000/8000 setup for general sharpening/secondary bevels. I've reestablished primary bevels on my small chisels before without it taking too long, so I think the 1000 should be course enough for re establishing by secondary bevels before the 4000/8000 hone!

I have access to a friend bench grinder tomorrow, and he's got a small 6" single wheel grinder with a "course" wheel attached (no idea what grit) so I might give one of my block planes a hollow grind using his and see how it compared to my some/paper ground bevels when I get my stones.

Is a 6" bench grinder wheel too right a radius for hollow grinding chisels/plane irons? Or is 8" a minimum?

I think I'll be pretty happy with the honing stones but to use scary sharpening to grind my tools, it will get just a expensive as a course water/diamond stone soon enough! So if a 6" bench grinder with a decent jig is better it might be worth keeping one elsewhere and getting it out when needed!

 

[carlb40]

If i had nicks etc in a blade then no i wouldn't use scary sharp for that. But for normal prep of new blades and touch ups etc during use is how i use it.

 

[Dissolve]

Yeah I think if I can set up a small grinder somewhere and just get it out when I need to, that could work. Is a 6" wheel too small a radius for grinding chisels/bench plane irons on?

I've read quite a lot about the heat build up, Is it not reccomended grinding chisels/planes on bench grinders?

 

[carlb40]

6 inch will be fine, don't forget although it's 6 inches. The actual area ground on a chisel/ plane blade is small. So you will hardly see the slight concavity from the stone. If you want you could once re ground just flatten the bevel on a waterstone. Or just go straight to the secondary bevel.

Little and often with the grinding, if it it starts to feel warm when grinding, just dip it in water. Then carry on.

 

[Jacob]

6" bench grindstone is the cheapest option but is the worst, though usable if that's all you have. Bigger is better, big and water bath better still. Belt sander even better as you avoid hollow grinding which is not good for heavily used tools.

 

[bugbear]

Yeah I think if I can set up a small grinder somewhere and just get it out when I need to, that could work. Is a 6" wheel too small a radius for grinding chisels/bench plane irons on?

I've read quite a lot about the heat build up, Is it not reccomended grinding chisels/planes on bench grinders?

I'll repeat the technique I learnt from a full time plane (and hence blade) maker on OLDTOOLS.

When grinding away damage from a blade, first grind the edge back to remove the damage, which leaves the front edge perfectly square and blunt (this feels very wrong when you do it). Then (and only then) grind the bevel.

This avoids performing grinding with a thin edge, which is always the place most prone to blueing.

BugBear


BugBear

 

[Dissolve]

6" bench grindstone is the cheapest option but is the worst, though usable if that's all you have. Bigger is better, big and water bath better still. Belt sander even better as you avoid hollow grinding which is not good for heavily used tools.

I have a cheap Axminster belt sander, but the table(s) for the belt/disc combo is absolutely useless. Could you run through how you'd grind the bevel on a belt sander?

I know some folks like a hollow ground bevel, is it that much weaker to cause issues?

 

[Jacob]

6" bench grindstone is the cheapest option but is the worst, though usable if that's all you have. Bigger is better, big and water bath better still. Belt sander even better as you avoid hollow grinding which is not good for heavily used tools.

I have a cheap Axminster belt sander, but the table(s) for the belt/disc combo is absolutely useless. Could you run through how you'd grind the bevel on a belt sander?

I know some folks like a hollow ground bevel, is it that much weaker to cause issues?

You hold it against the sander at the desired angle, as near as you can get. Then keep looking at it to check progress. It is really very, very, easy. Not as neat as something held against a guide, but quick and easy.
Ditto with all other types of grinder - you don't need jigs or tables once you get the hang of it, and it's better without.

 

[David C]

My current practice for chisels and straight, blades is to grind at 25 degrees or less, get wire edge on 800 grit King stone at 30 degrees, then raise up to polish tip only, at 32 degrees. (Then back of course)

Regrinding done after 7 to 10 sharpenings, as the 800 bevel gets wider,and it takes longer to get a wire edge.

The two degree change between 800 and 10,000 stone means I never need more than 4 gentle, polishing, pull strokes. (This is the advantage of the 2 degree change. It looks like some people are using 30 strokes on a strop).

This change of angle is easily done in an Eclipse type guide. The Eclipse also suits lightly cambered blades.

All anathema to some, but I have been using this method for about 30 years.

David Charlesworth

 

[Jacob]

Anathema is over egging it a bit Dave - it's just that there are more ways of skinning a cat. No doubt your way produces excellent results.

 

[Dissolve]

My current practice for chisels and straight, blades is to grind at 25 degrees or less, get wire edge on 800 grit King stone at 30 degrees, then raise up to polish tip only, at 32 degrees. (Then back of course)

Regrinding done after 7 to 10 sharpenings, as the 800 bevel gets wider,and it takes longer to get a wire edge.

The two degree change between 800 and 10,000 stone means I never need more than 4 gentle, polishing, pull strokes. (This is the advantage of the 2 degree change. It looks like some people are using 30 strokes on a strop).

This change of angle is easily done in an Eclipse type guide. The Eclipse also suits lightly cambered blades.

All anathema to some, but I have been using this method for about 30 years.

David Charlesworth

After creating the wire edge on the 800 stone do you jump straight to the 10000 to polish or do you use a stone inbetween?

I already have an eclipse type honing guide and I've had decent results using it so I'll be using it to camber some blades shortly.

Would it be easier to grind the primary bevel square then apply the camber on a course stone to the primary bevel?

 

[David C]

Yes, straight from coarse 800g stone to polishing stone. The 2 degree change of angle is essential. It means I am polishing tip only, not the whole of the 800 bevel, which gets wider after each sharpening, untill one regrinds.

In the beginning I used a 6,000g stone. When that one wore out after a number of years I switched to 8,ooog. When that wore out, to 10,000g.

Not sure if there is much discernable difference between 8 & 10 thousand.

Grinding bevel can be square. Very slight camber is also nice if you can acheive it.

The woodworking world does seem to divide into guide or freehand tribes, with strong opinions on both sides ! They must both work.

Best wishes,
David

 

[Jacob]

.........
The woodworking world does seem to divide into guide or freehand tribes, with strong opinions on both sides ! They must both work.

Best wishes,
David

In case of doubt :lol: the strong opinions I have are:
1 that everybody should be able to do simple freehand sharpening as a matter of course, whatever system they choose to end up with. It's just a simple basic skill like being able to sharpen a pencil, tie a shoelace, blow a nose.
2 that a vast array of dubious paraphernalia is sold on the back of the discouragement and reluctance to do it the simple way. Hence those endless (and inconclusive) threads about grits, brands, gadgets, bevels, machines, and large amounts of money spent.