Warning all APF10 Axminster Powered Respirator users??

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I knew this mask was FFP2 rated when i bought it, which has been confirmed by Axminster, so i have nothing to be unhappy about. I have PP3 dust masks but i just can't get on with them, so tend not to wear them as much as i should, so a permanent 2 is better than an intermittent 3 to my mind.

I wasn't expecting 12 eggs to start with.
 
It can't be rated as FFP2 as it is a powered respirator subject to different tests and specs to face half masks. It is rated to TH1P which offers a APF of 10, as does a FFP2. This is not a fair comparison and is misleading as APF20 is required for hardwood machining or sanding of ANY wood. Add to this the pic. of the guy emptying the dust sack. This also requires a APF20 device so totally misleading.
 
No it is misleading to say that an APF20 device is "required". You are cherry picking from the HSE site. In a commercial environment the employer needs to provide suitable protection. The liability for failing to do that would not rest with the mask provider unless their marketing material was deliberately or negligently wrong. Axminster sell this as APF10 - it is neither misleading nor wrong.

A non-commercial user makes their own decision about what level of protection, if any, they consider to be appropriate for them. In my experience, most wood turners use little or no respiratory protection when using turning tools (their choice), the reasoning being that few small particles are created, but may well opt for protection when sanding.

A well set up workshop may well have (as recommended by HSE guidance) at least one other primary line of defence, such as direct extraction. I copied the set up that Axminster use on their turning courses, which is an extraction hood (and an extracted chute below as well in my case) hooked up to a cyclone. Plus I have an air cleaner in my workshop, and exterior extraction fans. My choice as it is my shop. And I wear the APF10 when I feel the need. This provides me with face protection and positive pressure dust protection. I am very pleased with the APF10 as it is comfortable to wear for long periods.

This addresses the biggest problem for hobby or light trade users - not bothering with protection because it is either uncomfortable, ineffective (many people do not get on with face masks so don't bother) or unaffordable.

This was my issue with the OTT "WARNING" headline here. The warning was issued before the facts were properly established and without suitable commercial v domestic context.

The APF 10 is without doubt far better than doing nothing and far better than a poorly fitting mouth and nose mask. It is likely to get used. We need to get a sense of proportion here.
 
The device has an APF of 10.
This is a screen grab of the site:
APF Grab.jpg

and this is a screen grab of the HSE requirements for different woodworking jobs:
HSE RPE factors.jpg


The web site does seem misleading to me, but I'm new to all this.
 

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Thanks for that Chris!

In terms of what people should or shouldn't wear for their own protection, that's entirely up to them, but the facts are the facts, and being someone with sensetive lungs in the first place (asthma, hayfever and house dust allergies) I trusted the sales bloke in the axminster shop when he said it was suitable for MDF and exotics. And besides what he told me, as Chris has shown above it is false advertising!
 
I can see both sides of the debate and i can understand if some people think the advertising is misleading, but for me, i have weighed up all the pro's and cons and have decided that i am happy with my arrangement. I am a sole trader and have no-one to please but myself and as AJB says, i will wear this mask all day, whereas i wouldn't with a face mask as i just don't like them. I am also convinced that despite it being rated as a 10, the face mask feels to me that it keeps more dust at bay than a PP3 face mask does. My chest feels much clearer using the air hood than it does using a face mask and keeps fine dust out of my hair and eyes and beard. I also like the full face protection it affords.
 
AJB Temple":9nax2bk7 said:
Why is it not suitable for turning hardwoods? It has a protection factor of 10, which is equivalent to FFP2 and TH1....Quite honestly this is ample.

You have answered your own question; see attached HSE regulations for wood dust. This very clearly states work with hardwood requires APF20, as does emptying a dust bag (an image Axminster was using to market the product until this morning, when it was removed). APF20 is TH2P while, as you say, the Evolution is TH1P. With all respect, people's speculative opinion of what is adequate is not relevant in determining if the product has been mis-represented; it is a PPE product being marketed for a purpose for which it is unsuitable for in the eyes of HSE. Axminster stated FFP2 is "suitable for hardwoods and MDF"; HSE says not so. There is no obligation for a customer to set that aside, although their prerogative if they choose to.

If Axminster was not mis-representing this product, you might fairly ask why their written specification has changed this morning on their website, and why the image of a man emptying a commercial dust extraction sack - an activity HSE says requires APF20 respiratory protection - has been removed as well.

Ultimately, until today, the product was being sold with a written specification stating it was "FFP2 respiratory protection"; it does not carry that certification, and any claimed 'equivalents' to FFP2 are an irrelevance; a product claiming to meet a level of certification it does not meet is unlawful. If a buyer wants to judge it adequate for their needs, that's fine. But those who have bought it on the back of misinformation and would prefer a refund are due a refund. And right enough, several more full refunds have been offered this afternoon.

The devil's advocate view is admirable, but let's not advise people TH1P is fine when that position is desperately lacking any credible measure or evidence.
 

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All this has got me wondering what factor Rico Daniels hanky over his mouth & nose on The Salvager gives him :-s :-s
 
Jonnie - your argument is well written but flawed. You refer to HSE "regulations". In fact, what you are talking about is guidance.

HSE guidance refers to the commercial environment. It does not deal with domestic users and this is reasonable as exposure times and conditions will vary greatly. It is the employer who has the responsibility to provide suitable protection and guidance. The law is not in fact prescriptive about what is suitable, but indicates that following the guidance is likely to result in compliance with the law.

The HSE page that deals with wood dust makes clear that the first line of defence should be extraction. The guidance also then goes on to say "For very dusty jobs such as sanding, additional protection may be needed and a suitable face mask should be worn as well as using the extraction".

The only point I am making here is that there has been a tendency in this thread to extrapolate guidance, ignore the recommended first line so defence, and then treat guidance as if it is law (regulation) when it is not. This is, in itself misleading. The use of face masks should be put into proper context.

The overriding point is surely that it is a good idea to wear face masks of some kind when appropriate to do so. I did not find the Axminster APF10 advertising or product description misleading. I was aware of the HSE guidance and that as a domestic user it does not apply to me in a legislative way and I am aware that better face mask systems are available (at higher cost) but chose one that I knew I would use. In fact I followed the HSE guidance anyway by installing proper extraction (that is the primary requirement), whole air filtering (secondary and using a face mask (third line or defence) when necessary.

The APF 10 is a good product at a sensible price. In my opinion. It is clearly unwise (and not in accord with HSE guidance) to use a face mask system as the only or primary defence mechanism. That is the relevant context.
 
Additional extraction when emptying the extractor bags then.

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But then wouldn't you need additional additional extraction to empty the additional extractor? What you really need is a face mask suitable for the task [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]

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A little humour is fine but remember guys this is a serious subject involving personal safety.

I know from personal sensitivity to wood dusts that some must get through one way or another if masks and other extraction is not adequate.

I know for a fact that 99% of my reactions to wood have gone away whilst using my current setup, being lazy and spending a few minutes with a 'can't be bothered' attitude leads to discomfort, whether that's always due to ingestion of particles or just surface skin contact I don't know, but it's a trial regime I'm not prepared to take.

For me it's a very expensive must have if I wish to spin and sand bits of wood, and I'm still surprised at how much the mask filters still intercept when you see such quantities of dust streaming up the extractor pipes.

As an aside on the subject of filter levels, I did have a word with one woodworker I visited who was cleaning his big shop air recirculating filter with a Henry Vacuum in his shed. He had not cottoned on to the fact his Henry had courser filtering than the unit he was cleaning up and was just re-distributing the stuff around the shed.
 
Apologies Chas. The point I was trying to make is people may have bought the mask based on the picture from Axminsters website. AJB Temple's post of saying it should be used aswell as using extraction doesn't really work when you want to use it for emptying extractor bags !

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No apologies needed Coley, valid point, have to move all my extractors out into the open air and note wind direction and wear mask when empting.
 
AJB Temple":18ppnof8 said:
Jonnie - your argument is well written but flawed. You refer to HSE "regulations". In fact, what you are talking about is guidance.

HSE guidance refers to the commercial environment. It does not deal with domestic users and this is reasonable as exposure times and conditions will vary greatly. It is the employer who has the responsibility to provide suitable protection and guidance. The law is not in fact prescriptive about what is suitable, but indicates that following the guidance is likely to result in compliance with the law.

The HSE page that deals with wood dust makes clear that the first line of defence should be extraction. The guidance also then goes on to say "For very dusty jobs such as sanding, additional protection may be needed and a suitable face mask should be worn as well as using the extraction".

The only point I am making here is that there has been a tendency in this thread to extrapolate guidance, ignore the recommended first line so defence, and then treat guidance as if it is law (regulation) when it is not. This is, in itself misleading. The use of face masks should be put into proper context.

The overriding point is surely that it is a good idea to wear face masks of some kind when appropriate to do so. I did not find the Axminster APF10 advertising or product description misleading. I was aware of the HSE guidance and that as a domestic user it does not apply to me in a legislative way and I am aware that better face mask systems are available (at higher cost) but chose one that I knew I would use. In fact I followed the HSE guidance anyway by installing proper extraction (that is the primary requirement), whole air filtering (secondary and using a face mask (third line or defence) when necessary.

The APF 10 is a good product at a sensible price. In my opinion. It is clearly unwise (and not in accord with HSE guidance) to use a face mask system as the only or primary defence mechanism. That is the relevant context.

AJB Temple - I think it's unfair to say my argument is flawed, not least given I made very clear hobbyist users were free to decide for themselves whether to overlook HSE guidance (i.e. employers not having the same freedom).

That aside, what you are saying about the wider extraction/RPE topic overlooks that this isn't only about what purpose this product is fit for going forward - it is a question of whether it had been misrepresented, which would leave EXISTING owners with a right to a refund. The fact is Axminster have been selling the product as "FFP2 respiratory protection", and it is irrefutable that unless a product has been tested to EN149 'Respiratory Protective Devices', which this has not, the product MUST NOT be sold as carrying that certification. There can not be any debate on that point, as it is surely enshrined in consumer law? You can't say a product is Kite Marked when it's only CE marked, then just say they are equivalent. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 protects consumers from products sold 'Not As Described', and the debate over whether it might be adequate dependent on a number of other factors doesn't enter into that. Let's not forget, I was given a full refund without question, as were several other customers.

I don't remember saying a respirator should provide protection on its own, so you're incorrect in implying I have ignored the first line of defence. The Evolution was (as you advise) only one part of my dust control measures, but nevertheless one I expected to perform as it was sold to me ("suitable for hardwoods and MDF").
And when you say better respirators are available but at a HIGHER cost, actually the Trend Airshield Pro currently sells for a good bit LESS than the Evolution, but conforms to the higher TH2P level - that's twice as effective as TH1P, for anyone who isn't sure if these codes make a difference. Your view is the Evolution is a "good product at a sensible price", and that's absolutely your choice (and your opinion valid); but equally if someone decides that twice the protection for 10% less money is a no-brainer (TH1P being half as effective as TH2P), you can't fault that logic. I get that you can only protect yourself within the finances available, but it creates an interesting debate when higher protection (and near identical features) are available for less...you surely can't advise someone not to overprotect themselves?

This was never to cause an argument, or do a "demolition job" as I was accused of; I realised the product wasn't what I thought it was, worked out where I'd been misled, Axminster agreed, and I was refunded. As it turns out, countless other users were in the same position, buying the product on the strength of information/images which Axminster saw fit to remove from their website on Friday (read into that what you will).
 
Axminster have arranged for a courier to pick up my APF10 respirator on Wednesday. I'll be spending my refund on the Trend Airshield Pro and use the change to also buy spare filters and visor overlays. In fairness to Axminster they've offered refunds, however having happily spent thousands there in the last couple of years I have now lost respect for the company
 
Sawdust=manglitter":1ctu1z7a said:
Axminster have arranged for a courier to pick up my APF10 respirator on Wednesday. I'll be spending my refund on the Trend Airshield Pro and use the change to also buy spare filters and visor overlays. In fairness to Axminster they've offered refunds, however having happily spent thousands there in the last couple of years I have now lost respect for the company
Similar to how they made me feel then. You read time after time about how excellent they are at resolving issues, so it was a no brainer to invest in a fairly expensive machine from them 5ish grand I think. It wasn't fit for use and after numerous things going wrong and their 'technician' making things worse,I asked for a refund- Nope can't do that, yada yada yada. Hit a brick wall, i was stuck with it. Spent numerous days fixing it myself in the end.
Funny how they suddenly turn unhelpful when it's a nice big chunk of profit they stand to lose.


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Sawdust=manglitter":b1hze6n2 said:
Axminster have arranged for a courier to pick up my APF10 respirator on Wednesday. I'll be spending my refund on the Trend Airshield Pro and use the change to also buy spare filters and visor overlays. In fairness to Axminster they've offered refunds, however having happily spent thousands there in the last couple of years I have now lost respect for the company

I'd hazard a guess that under their terms page http://www.axminster.co.uk/terms/ there'll be a clause saying they're not liable and its for the buyer to check the item is suitable. Which is perfectly reasonable as its up to the buyer to make sure an item is, and not rely on the sellers website, better to ask the manufacturer.

My comment is not meant to come across as being harsh, most people don't double check and its times like these you find out there's been misinformation. Axminster isn't the horses mouth but might end up as the panto arrze end in a description, for whatever reason...
 
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