Wadkin Bursgreen Trenching Heads Question

[KT_NorCal]

Presumably Wadkin-Bursgreen had a 5/8in arbor for the US market. Despite having used saws like the BGP (itself derived from the AGS) and the later "mk.2" AGS and AGSP, I can't for the life of me remember using small bore saw blades - all the ones I used took a 30mm bore saw blade, possibly because they were fitted with a collar or sleeve over the actual arbor, a bit like the way a lot of present day Makita mitre saws have a 5/8in arbor with a 30mm sleeve over it in Europe.

I just took at look at the AGS10 manual and it was offered in the UK with 5/8th as well "with 20 and 25mm as options." That is pretty interesting if it was the standard over your side of the pond as well. It also recommended a max size of 6" for any dado or grooving heads, so sort of confirms me not liking the ide of running them on the table saw. Also, of the three AGS 12s I've seen for sale here in California they all had 1" arbors.

The ability to use a Delta sliding table is no surprise to me, either. According to a retired Bursgreen, Colne man I spoke to about 10 years ago some of the earlier Bursgreen lightweight designs were (modified) copies of existing American designs. He statef that the "mk.1" BRA was based on the earlier deWalt (USA) radial arm saw (made by Original Saw these days?) whilst the AGS was supposed to be based on a saw made by the American Saw Co., which I have never been able to track down. Odder still is that the very first AGS, the 14in model made in Sagar days, had a completely different style of body until about 1962 or a little later. The smaller 10 and 12in models looked similar to the Unisaw when first introduced

The similarities are significant, but you can definitely see that it "inspired" the 60s and 70s AGSs (The ones with the cast iron tub midsection), but that they diverged significantly in several ways.
First of all the AGS weighs at least twice the weight of the unisaw, has that CI tub that the is essentially part of the trunnion assembly, the table is (oddly) 28" deep instead of 27" which was/is the standard in that size of cabinet saws, the blade is set farther back in the table, etc, etc. That said I do think in many ways the Delta Trunnion assembly is a bit superior. I see some ways to improve the WB one, but there are a couple glaring annoyances with it compared to the Delta...

Edit: I just retrieved an old mid-1960s Parry's catalogue which states that the 10in AGS/BGS came with a 5/8in arbor, the 12in AGS/BGS/BGP with a 1in arbor, the 14in AGS with a 1-1/8 or 1-1/4in arbor.

The same catalogue gives the CC arbor size as 1-1/4in, whilst the 10in BRA has a 5/8in arbor. The 12in and 16in models are absent, but the 14in model is stated as being able to accommodate grooving heads up to 1-1/4in wide, but no arbor diameter us given

I might have some other catalogues somewhere, so I'll see if I can dig them out

I just asked a friend of mine who just sold his 14" BRA in the UK and he said his was 1 inch, so I'm pretty sure these heads were meant for that machine given the CC et al didn't seem to come with anything but the bigger arbor...

 

[KT_NorCal]

The big Wadkin RAS such as CC and CD have 1 1/4" arbors. The smaller (14") Wadkin CK has a 1" arbor. I don't know what the BRA came with, but a friend in Melbourne runs a 1" bore trenching head on one of his (three!!!!) BRAs. I assumed the BRAs all had 1" arbors, but may well be wrong - although I suspect anything smaller may have been for the American market.

The Wadkin CC has an extended arbour to allow the use of trenching heads. It comes with a spacer 2 1/4" long - which I presume means it can take a trench head up to 2 1/4" wide (the CC has a 5hp motor).

The PK dimension saw shares some features with the CC (same blade size, same motor design, etc) but doesn't come with an extended arbor. An arbor extension could be bought for the PK - Jack English Machines has one (or borrowed one) and said it was quite scary having that big head spinning. Being in Canada, with 60hz electricity, I guess the head was spinning at 3600 rpm, rather than the more common 2800rpm of 50hz countries.

Cheers, Vann.

I'm pretty confident these things were used on the BRA given all the data, but your point about the 50hs vs 60hs motors is interesting... the saw arbors and spindle moulder arbors seem to be set to spin at the same RPMs irrespective of HZ, but I guess that doesn't count when they are direct drive....

 

[KT_NorCal]

I looked up W/WB BRA literature from various time periods and most of them are shown in at least one picture using a trenching head that looks very similar to the second one in my original picture. It appears both the 14 and 16 were standard with 1" arbors and a metric arbor was the option, so pretty confident that is what these were originally for.

The point about motor hz is interesting though because the brochures do show that the 50hz spun at 3000RPM and the 60hz spun at 3600 RPM (which is actually a little faster than my Delta 40B at 3450rpm). There are no notations on any of the optional bits as to them being limited to the 50hz model.

Oh and while I was looking for BRA related stuff I ran across this thing.... Don't know the model this was but it looks like an amazingly robust machine... Anyone have a model # for this wee beastie?

 

[wallace]

I have the same trenching head that came in a wooden box with BRA on it. I have used it on my CK with good results. Like already mentioned they should be really sharp to prevent climb cutting. Jack did a video of how to hone them on the machine. I've never felt as if they are going to walk through the work. They should have a casting designation on them which you can identify what machines they were designed for. Wadkin made some 12" ones, I cant imagine what they sound like when spinning.
I have a catalogue that was used by wadkin agents to price up tooling, it lists what tooling was used on what machine.

 

[JobandKnock]

That RAS is probably still a BRA. Bursgreen made BRAs in all sorts if configurations, for example a BRA12 with a 48 inch crosscut for trimming sheet material was made in the early 1960s (disappeared when panel saws became more common) and a BRA with a pneumatic crosscutting drive for continuous production was made, together with a twin head model where one head slid in and out from the second head on a long frame was made for timber roof truss manufacture

These days people often don't realise that until the early 1980s Wadkin had a substantial heavy engineering machinery division going back to WWI and before (their first machine was actually a pattern miller). For that they made beefed up versions of some of their woodworking machines (like the pin routers).

That oddball BRA looks like it could have been made for cutting extruded aluminium profile or the like

 

[wallace]

That RAS is probably still a BRA. Bursgreen made BRAs in all sorts if configurations, for example a BRA12 with a 48 inch crosscut for trimming sheet material was made in the early 1960s (disappeared when panel saws became more common) and a BRA with a pneumatic crosscutting drive for continuous production was made, together with a twin head model where one head slid in and out from the second head on a long frame was made for timber roof truss manufacture

These days people often don't realise that until the early 1980s Wadkin had a substantial heavy engineering machinery division going back to WWI and before (their first machine was actually a pattern miller). For that they made beefed up versions of some of their woodworking machines (like the pin routers).

That oddball BRA looks like it could have been made for cutting extruded aluminium profile or the like

There first machine was the Mechanical woodworker, also one of there first machines was a floor sander. Wadkin left the company in 1906 and went on to design and build the pattern miller using the wadkin and scott king patent. This company was purchased later by wadkin&co after the death of Joseph wadkin.

 

[KT_NorCal]

I have the same trenching head that came in a wooden box with BRA on it. I have used it on my CK with good results. Like already mentioned they should be really sharp to prevent climb cutting. Jack did a video of how to hone them on the machine. I've never felt as if they are going to walk through the work. They should have a casting designation on them which you can identify what machines they were designed for. Wadkin made some 12" ones, I cant imagine what they sound like when spinning.
I have a catalogue that was used by wadkin agents to price up tooling, it lists what tooling was used on what machine.

Hi Wallace,
Cool, do you happen to have any pictures of the original "pin" or was it missing in your boxed one as well? It would be cool to see any pictures of the head itself too. It is similar to the first or the second one in my picture at the top? I saw the thread you did on your CK when you posted it. Nice looking saw!

Also, I haven't found any markings (other than the first one that has the knives marked "Bursgreen") on them yet. I'm going to bead blast the old paint/gunk off them and will take a closer look. Although it did just occur to me that some markings could be under the knives/chippers.

Do you happen to know if the spurs/chippers/knickers (don't know what the hell to call them really) are set so they run slightly shallow from the diameter the knives run at or are they set at the same diameter? I watched Jack's series of videos and when he sets the knives the chippers are clearly not hitting at the same time. All the rest that he does makes sense to me.

Per my original post I am going to set up some kind of a jig to balance them as well.

Thanks!
Kevin

 

[KT_NorCal]

That RAS is probably still a BRA. Bursgreen made BRAs in all sorts if configurations...

That oddball BRA looks like it could have been made for cutting extruded aluminium profile or the like

I thought I had seen most of the permutations of the WB crosscut saws, but that was a new (and extremely cool) iteration. With that much bearing contact area (on top of that fat arm) it must be a crazy solid saw.

 

[KT_NorCal]

That RAS is probably still a BRA. Bursgreen made BRAs in all sorts if configurations, for example a BRA12 with a 48 inch crosscut for trimming sheet material was made in the early 1960s (disappeared when panel saws became more common)

That oddball BRA looks like it could have been made for cutting extruded aluminium profile or the like

I asked the seller about it out of curiosity and he very kindly sent me a few more pictures.... you win the prize. It is a BRA (48?) although the tag on it says Wadkin LTD. which is interesting as the main machine is branded Wadkin Bursgreen. It also is a 12" saw. If the Tag follow Wadkin Bursgreen custom it is a 1977 machine as well.

Maybe this is one of the saws from the heavy industry side of WB that you described...

Very cool saw. Wish I had the room in my garage to accessorize my trenching heads with that machine.

 

[deema]

The BRA has a drive pin that fits through the hole and links the two heads together. There isn’t anything missing

 

[KT_NorCal]

The BRA has a drive pin that fits through the hole and links the two heads together. There isn’t anything missing

So the BRA inner blade washer/stabilizer had a removable pin you could add to it?

That is an interesting idea if that is the case...

 

[deema]

Having a drive pin isn’t something new. A lot of saws have them.