Vice types and selection.

[D_W]

Ditto - I only make something with a lot of dovetails about twice a year, but I do it sitting down. Especially half blinds on cases (after sawing). Chisel and mallet in hand, sitting off the end of the bench with the work at the edge and sharpening stone behind me so that I don't have to get up to touch up edges.

I built one of the two screw moxon type vises (less than pretty, but functional and doubled as a tall square-face router table fence - the table is long gone now). I couldn't actually name the last time that I used it.

 

[Bm101]

Just a thought. What about taking the mountain to Muhammad.
Probably surplus to requirements with your new one but maybe some spare feet might be a simple solution. Instead of trying to manipulate the height between your benchtop and your comfort zone why not lift the whole bench up?
I keep looking for skip dippings of railway sleeper off cuts to make feet for my bench to raise it up on occasion for routing and chisel work etc. That slight variation in the angle of your back is vital for comfort for many. I've even wondered about making a much higher work 'station' for this sort of work.

 

[Jacob]

I did an improved Moxon vice (well I think it's improved) which I posted about here post1312105.html?hilit=weighted%20beam#p1312105
Easily adjusted and has quick release which returns to same setting if needed.
Perfect for DTs and can hold a whole chest side for dozens of DTs in one sitting - no need to move either self or workpiece.
Planning improved chair too; stealing my wife's office "saddle seat" - adjustable height and on castors so I can scoot along the bench.

 

[MikeG.]

I much prefer standing when doing dovetails, and I do lots of them. Each to their own, there is no right or wrong here. I like standing because I like holding the workpiece with my elbow/ forearm. I'd be horribly hindered if I had to use any sort of device to hold the wood still. Also, I want my head directly above the work when chiseling. Again, no right or wrong about this, just my personal preference. I've seen people chiseling dovetails with the sockets facing towards them, and I simply can't see how they see the line with their chisel being in the way. Clearly, however, they make it work. Doucette and Wolfe, for instance, work like that and make some of the highest class joints you'll ever see, and they do it quickly. Clearly what doesn't work for me isn't an issue for them and others.

 

[thetyreman]

I stand up as well, it feels natural to me with the motion in my arms and shoulder, I try not to hunch too much though especially since having bad back, might try sitting down for my next DT cutting session.

 

[Trevanion]

Pfft... You all talk like you actually know how to do dovetails...

Behold puny mortals, look upon my work and weep, for I am too skilled for your minds to even comprehend!

Sat crosslegged on the floor, marked out with a Crayola, waste chopped out with the claw end of a hammer, stomped together on the floor. Absolute perfection which none of you could even dream about, let alone actually attempt!

 

[transatlantic]

You didn't leave any room for glue.

Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk

 

[Jacob]

...... I've seen people chiseling dovetails with the sockets facing towards them, and I simply can't see how they see the line with their chisel being in the way. .......

You move it in between strokes and the last one is with the chisel sitting in the cut line. Cut lines are key, made with a cutting gauge, not a knife.

 

[bp122]

Thank you all for your responses.

The decision to build a secondary workbench is because my dining table workbench is too low for me to work on dovetails at the moment (I cut my first and second dovetails over the weekend, obviously the second on came out better but my back is killing me for having to lean over forward) ........

I do it sitting down. Only way to do a lot of them efficiently.
It's essential to work out a good workplace set up - I also need close visual contact, bright light etc. And organise a sequence with tasks grouped so you aren't picking up putting down different tools every few minutes. And mark up 100% so that every piece is easy to match with the next one i.e. 4 drawers have sixteen sides which have several hundred ways of being aligned wrongly!

Hasn't really thought of sitting down, I must admit. Might try it with a tall stool and see if that suits me.

Just a thought. What about taking the mountain to Muhammad.
Probably surplus to requirements with your new one but maybe some spare feet might be a simple solution. Instead of trying to manipulate the height between your benchtop and your comfort zone why not lift the whole bench up?
I keep looking for skip dippings of railway sleeper off cuts to make feet for my bench to raise it up on occasion for routing and chisel work etc. That slight variation in the angle of your back is vital for comfort for many. I've even wondered about making a much higher work 'station' for this sort of work.

I thought about it at first, but the already creaky and moving workbench of mine might just get worse if I spaced it up with even more loose bits underneath it. That is why I thought of building a bench top workbench.

Ditto - I only make something with a lot of dovetails about twice a year, but I do it sitting down. Especially half blinds on cases (after sawing). Chisel and mallet in hand, sitting off the end of the bench with the work at the edge and sharpening stone behind me so that I don't have to get up to touch up edges.

I built one of the two screw moxon type vises (less than pretty, but functional and doubled as a tall square-face router table fence - the table is long gone now). I couldn't actually name the last time that I used it.

I am intrigued about the vice and fence concept, would you mind sharing a picture or two of this contraption? I am very interested in this concept.

 

[MikeG.]

.......Behold puny mortals, look upon my work and weep......

How are your teeth?

 

[Trevanion]

How are your teeth?

 

[Jacob]

.........
I am intrigued about the vice and fence concept, would you mind sharing a picture or two of this contraption? I am very interested in this concept.

There's a fashion for the so-called "moxon vice" since somebody spotted it in an old text, but it's not what you need.
You need a Record vice for holding components vertically whilst you saw the DT sides, and a hold-down to hold it down firmly on the bench whilst you chop out waste. For chopping out you need the inertia of the bench top to work against - it's much harder to chop out something held vertically in a vice.
Search for hold-down or hold-fast there's lots in the forum. I'm quite keen on my "weighted beam" idea as it's very easy to set up and use, you just need a long bolt and a length of 2x4" . Clamping pressure requires isn't high - it's just to keep things in place whilst you chop vertically.

 

[ED65]

Due to a fortunate windfall just yesterday, the company I work for were getting rid of some record metal working vices with QR and I got one which looks stunning and works really well. I am thinking of mounting that to a bench hook and use that as my delicate vice by adding some softwood jaws and clamping it carefully and not over-tighten. This solves my height issue for now and then when I do build a proper bench, as most of you have said, I will know what I do and do not need and go from there!

What a lucky break! Deffo build some jaws for it, well worth the effort.

When I got my similar vice recently (intended originally only for metalwork) I made some magnetic hardwood liner jaws for clamping softer metals and maybe some wood, but I've since found it so handy I've built three sets. I intend to make slip-on ali or copper linings for metalwork too, since I don't think solid pieces are going to come my way any time soon.

The wider and taller softwood ones have been semi-permanent over the winter as I haven't been doing much metalwork although I hope that'll change as the car boot season gets in swing.

BTW even with softwood don't be afraid to use a slip of leather, or permanently glue some to one or both jaws, to aid grip without having to go all gorilla tightening up.

 

[bp122]

How are your teeth?

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Due to a fortunate windfall just yesterday, the company I work for were getting rid of some record metal working vices with QR and I got one which looks stunning and works really well. I am thinking of mounting that to a bench hook and use that as my delicate vice by adding some softwood jaws and clamping it carefully and not over-tighten. This solves my height issue for now and then when I do build a proper bench, as most of you have said, I will know what I do and do not need and go from there!

What a lucky break! Deffo build some jaws for it, well worth the effort.

When I got my similar vice recently (intended originally only for metalwork) I made some magnetic hardwood liner jaws for clamping softer metals and maybe some wood, but I've since found it so handy I've built three sets. I intend to make slip-on ali or copper linings for metalwork too, since I don't think solid pieces are going to come my way any time soon.

The wider and taller softwood ones have been semi-permanent over the winter as I haven't been doing much metalwork although I hope that'll change as the car boot season gets in swing.

BTW even with softwood don't be afraid to use a slip of leather, or permanently glue some to one or both jaws, to aid grip without having to go all gorilla tightening up.

Thanks, ED65. This is super helpful.

.........
I am intrigued about the vice and fence concept, would you mind sharing a picture or two of this contraption? I am very interested in this concept.

There's a fashion for the so-called "moxon vice" since somebody spotted it in an old text, but it's not what you need.
You need a Record vice for holding components vertically whilst you saw the DT sides, and a hold-down to hold it down firmly on the bench whilst you chop out waste. For chopping out you need the inertia of the bench top to work against - it's much harder to chop out something held vertically in a vice.
Search for hold-down or hold-fast there's lots in the forum. I'm quite keen on my "weighted beam" idea as it's very easy to set up and use, you just need a long bolt and a length of 2x4" . Clamping pressure requires isn't high - it's just to keep things in place whilst you chop vertically.

Ah, you see, I didn't know this was an option and possibly better one at that. I have only watched videos on YT where people used coping saws to remove bulk of the waste and then chisel down to the line, all while the workpiece being clamped on the vice. SO I tried to follow the same method. And boy was I in for a surprise as to how hot the coping saw blade got cutting half inch oak!!!

 

[MikeG.]

........Ah, you see, I didn't know this was an option and possibly better one at that. I have only watched videos on YT where people used coping saws to remove bulk of the waste and then chisel down to the line, all while the workpiece being clamped on the vice. SO I tried to follow the same method. And boy was I in for a surprise as to how hot the coping saw blade got cutting half inch oak!!!

Using a coping saw in the vice is fine. Chiseling in the vice (other than a little light paring) is not. Absolutely not. You should ALWAYS chisel downwards with the work lying flat on the bench in my opinion.

Haddenham near Ely? If so, you're a stiff bike ride or a short drive away from me. Come down to my workshop one weekend and we can chop out a few dovetails.

 

[Jacob]

.... I have only watched videos on YT where people used coping saws to remove bulk of the waste and then chisel down to the line, all while the workpiece being clamped on the vice. SO I tried to follow the same method. And boy was I in for a surprise as to how hot the coping saw blade got cutting half inch oak!!!

Coping saw is another trend which is perhaps better ignored. It's not that quick and you still have to finish with a chisel, might as well start with one. Though a few quick extra cuts in the waste with the DT saw can make chiselling a bit easier.
Bench top engineers vice with wooden jaws a good idea though. I keep meaning to get a small one - my No6 was just to big and heavy for anything I do, so I sold it on.

 

[bp122]

........Ah, you see, I didn't know this was an option and possibly better one at that. I have only watched videos on YT where people used coping saws to remove bulk of the waste and then chisel down to the line, all while the workpiece being clamped on the vice. SO I tried to follow the same method. And boy was I in for a surprise as to how hot the coping saw blade got cutting half inch oak!!!

Using a coping saw in the vice is fine. Chiseling in the vice (other than a little light paring) is not. Absolutely not. You should ALWAYS chisel downwards with the work lying flat on the bench in my opinion.

Haddenham near Ely? If so, you're a stiff bike ride or a short drive away from me. Come down to my workshop one weekend and we can chop out a few dovetails.

Lesson learnt on the heavy chiseling!

Regarding the offer, it is really very kind of you. I would have taken up the offer if I was in Cambridgeshire, however I am in Haddenham, Buckinghamshire. I'll be REALLY stiff after a bike ride to yours :lol:

.... I have only watched videos on YT where people used coping saws to remove bulk of the waste and then chisel down to the line, all while the workpiece being clamped on the vice. SO I tried to follow the same method. And boy was I in for a surprise as to how hot the coping saw blade got cutting half inch oak!!!

Coping saw is another trend which is perhaps better ignored. It's not that quick and you still have to finish with a chisel, might as well start with one. Though a few quick extra cuts in the waste with the DT saw can make chiselling a bit easier.
Bench top engineers vice with wooden jaws a good idea though. I keep meaning to get a small one - my No6 was just to big and heavy for anything I do, so I sold it on.

Mine isn't a small one either, but I am hoping to use it anyway without issues, following the words of Mr. Sellers - "What holds a lot, holds a little"