Varnished kitchen worktop in lousy condition - which sander please?

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TheTiddles

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Ooooh OK.. but won't it leave circular marks though? Thank you for your reply... and patience! 🙈
Here’s a top finished completely with a 3mm throw orbital sander, starting at 60-grit, going up to 240. Obviously if you tried to sand with the grain you’d have a job
15698A98-1804-4841-80E9-19ED471E1E79.jpeg
 

Vintage

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Probably late to this part I did our 11 ish meters of oak top in osmo 3032 5 years ago and I've not touched them since. Have since used it on 2 bits of oak in bathrooms and 2 bits in my utility. Great stuff though it pongs a bit when you apply it thought probably less than lots of other stuff. I'm just used to water based stuff!

Only issue we've ever had was one particular oven cleaner leaving a black stain. But rubbing back and re coating fixed it.
 

gog64

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does anyone have any details of these please?


I'm no expert, but 5 minutes on google seems to indicate that there are many versions of the original that are made by the OEM, i.e.

INDASA 579138
Metabo 150mm SXE
RUPES Skorpio E

There are several more, but you get the gist. These are the full fat version with the variable speed control on the paddle.

Then there are the clones, i.e.

Menzer ETS 150
Sealey DAS150PS
Hyvst 350w

I'm sure there are more of these, I stopped at 3 examples. I don't know for sure, but I'd be surprised if these weren't all from the same factory in China. They don't have the variable speed on the paddle, but do have the brushless motor, decent dust extraction, interchangeable pad (so you can use different size disks). @petermillard does a great video on one he imported from China (loving the vids Peter). However, you don't need to import one (nor does it save you much money ), here's a UK version from a seller in the UK for about £175 including VAT:


If I wanted a brushless 5mm orbit sander on a budget, I'd take a good look at that.

@Sideways that took me a LOT longer to type than to google, so possibly your children are right and your google-fu skills need work.
 

Jameshow

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If it's not to much of a thread Jack....

Would you choose the metebo sx 3150 or the Makita 6030 for a general purpose larger sander?

Difference is about £20 in favour of the Metebo but is it as good quality?

Cheers James
 

gog64

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No sorry, it's because I'm reading all the replies. .. and getting used to a new phone 🙈
Thanks for everyone's help and advice, what a great group you all are 👌

Well done, looks lovely, how may coats?

3 coats, 1st coat diluted 20% with white spirits, 3rd coat applied with a plastic scouring pad. The only downside is that you need to leave 4-8 hours between coats. On a new worktop I’d recommend treating both sides. If you oil before scribing you need to remember to reapply 3 coats to that edge before installation.
 

Amclaussen

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I was sceptical of the Rubio at first but was assured by the company that supplied me with the worktops that this is what they recommended.
Never had a callback yet.👍

I dont have wooden worktops in my kitchen and never would....I have supplied and fitted them for Clients over the years at their request, but I always try and talk them out of it. They do require maintenance and proper care and unless you are willing to do so on a regular basis, they will deteriorate and end up looking poor. They are not a fit & forget surface such as a Quartz or Granite or even Laminate type work surface.
You will regret the day you were born, using a belt sander is a definite no, unless you remove the work top.
Use a cabinet scraper and finish using a quality sanding sheet.
Cheap sandpaper will de laminate and bits of grit will leave nasty marks that you will then have to sand out..
Abrinet is the right move, cuts and clears well, outlast most other sanding sheets.

I do not agree: a Belt sander with a fixed, too high speed and too coarse belt is indeed a NO-NO... (for example, a Makita 4" x 24" without speed control, a brute force machine that is only good for aggresive work and not at all for any finish!)

BUT; a variable speed belt sander equipped with a not too-agressive grade belt is advantageous when you have to remove old coatings or deep blemishes. The trick is using it at its lower speeds. Some belt sanders can be fitted with additional base plates to avoid going too deep. Mine is a not-a-top brand Skil 7640 variable speed 3"x 21" 900m watt belt sander. It can lower its speed far enough to tackle some resin or even plastics sanding without quickly overheating and melting the surface! Leaving a belt sander for too long at the same spot or moving it too slowly along the surface can heat the surface too. The base plate that it came with, is advantageous after you learn how to use it, and also take the time to slightly bend it to the proper shape, and take into account that too thick sanding belts will protrude too much and "eat" or gouge the wood surface!, but taking care to select the thinner material sanding belts, the belt will be kept at the best depth and only remove the very top of the surface (the old varnish) and not too much of the wood below.

As others have already said, a good dual action random orbit sander, preferably with forced rotation first, followed by the random mode (non forced rotation) is best for finishing large surfaces, like a 8-person dinning table, or a Concert piano or even a bedroom's floor. In that way, the belt sander helps a lot in speeding the large work, and the dual action random orbit sander can remove all coarse marks from the initial sander, and will reach a fine finish sooner. In my case, I have an old Random orbit Bosch PE12AE about 380 watts, and after years of using it, decided that all of the random orbit sanders with 125mm platten and less than 600 watts are a waste of time!: meet the newer really powerful ones from Bosch, Festool and Makita, with more than 700 watts and FORCED ROTATION (Dual mode: forced geared rotation, and free-spinning "random" orbit)... As the Festool is way too expensive for me, and the Bosch has some issues with plastic gears breaking, I bought the Makita BO6050, and find it slightly unrefined, somewaht noisy and slightly vibrating, but powerful and fast, and at the same time capable of fine finishes in its final non-forced rotation "random" mode, like having two machines in one. Thus, by attacking the job with the Skil 7640 belt sander AT LOW SPEED, caring to use thinner belts of not too coarse grade, and then following with the Makita BO6050 on the powerful forced rotation, and then finishing on the less aggresive random mode, I can tackle large surfaces in an efficient and fast way. I have only kept the old Bosch 380 watt sander-polisher for smaller jobs, and because I have collected numerous accesories for it, but find it too slow and lacking power. For that reason, I do not recommend any of the numerous under 600 watt random orbit sanders from the many brands like DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, Ridgid etc., but do recommend the powerful Makita or Festool (if you have the money and enjoy spending so much!). One word of caution: the powerful sanders I have mentioned DO indeed take some LEARNING to master, as they can produce damage if not carefully used. but with a little practice and use, they are the way to go. Finally, the much admired Mirka Deros seems to me as a fine machine, but it is expensive for what it is and still lacks some serious power.
 

AJB Temple

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I do not agree: a Belt sander with a fixed, too high speed and too coarse belt is indeed a NO-NO... (for example, a Makita 4" x 24" without speed control, a brute force machine that is only good for aggresive work and not at all for any finish!)

BUT; a variable speed belt sander equipped with a not too-agressive grade belt is advantageous when you have to remove old coatings or deep blemishes. The trick is using it at its lower speeds. Some belt sanders can be fitted with additional base plates to avoid going too deep. Mine is a not-a-top brand Skil 7640 variable speed 3"x 21" 900m watt belt sander. It can lower its speed far enough to tackle some resin or even plastics sanding without quickly overheating and melting the surface! Leaving a belt sander for too long at the same spot or moving it too slowly along the surface can heat the surface too. The base plate that it came with, is advantageous after you learn how to use it, and also take the time to slightly bend it to the proper shape, and take into account that too thick sanding belts will protrude too much and "eat" or gouge the wood surface!, but taking care to select the thinner material sanding belts, the belt will be kept at the best depth and only remove the very top of the surface (the old varnish) and not too much of the wood below.

As others have already said, a good dual action random orbit sander, preferably with forced rotation first, followed by the random mode (non forced rotation) is best for finishing large surfaces, like a 8-person dinning table, or a Concert piano or even a bedroom's floor. In that way, the belt sander helps a lot in speeding the large work, and the dual action random orbit sander can remove all coarse marks from the initial sander, and will reach a fine finish sooner. In my case, I have an old Random orbit Bosch PE12AE about 380 watts, and after years of using it, decided that all of the random orbit sanders with 125mm platten and less than 600 watts are a waste of time!: meet the newer really powerful ones from Bosch, Festool and Makita, with more than 700 watts and FORCED ROTATION (Dual mode: forced geared rotation, and free-spinning "random" orbit)... As the Festool is way too expensive for me, and the Bosch has some issues with plastic gears breaking, I bought the Makita BO6050, and find it slightly unrefined, somewaht noisy and slightly vibrating, but powerful and fast, and at the same time capable of fine finishes in its final non-forced rotation "random" mode, like having two machines in one. Thus, by attacking the job with the Skil 7640 belt sander AT LOW SPEED, caring to use thinner belts of not too coarse grade, and then following with the Makita BO6050 on the powerful forced rotation, and then finishing on the less aggresive random mode, I can tackle large surfaces in an efficient and fast way. I have only kept the old Bosch 380 watt sander-polisher for smaller jobs, and because I have collected numerous accesories for it, but find it too slow and lacking power. For that reason, I do not recommend any of the numerous under 600 watt random orbit sanders from the many brands like DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, Ridgid etc., but do recommend the powerful Makita or Festool (if you have the money and enjoy spending so much!). One word of caution: the powerful sanders I have mentioned DO indeed take some LEARNING to master, as they can produce damage if not carefully used. but with a little practice and use, they are the way to go. Finally, the much admired Mirka Deros seems to me as a fine machine, but it is expensive for what it is and still lacks some serious power.

Disagree. I have a 4" Makita belt sander, 3" Elu (both variable speed) and a Mirka Deros. I would use the Mirka any day in preference to my belt sanders for stripping a finish: a job I have done numerous times. It does not lack power. ROS will get the job done quicker and better. Use extraction - makes a big difference.
 

Amclaussen

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Disagree. I have a 4" Makita belt sander, 3" Elu (both variable speed) and a Mirka Deros. I would use the Mirka any day in preference to my belt sanders for stripping a finish: a job I have done numerous times. It does not lack power. ROS will get the job done quicker and better. Use extraction - makes a big difference.

If that is your experience, Fine!

Mine is what I have already said.

I also use dust collection and change the sanding belts and pads on time, plus using tack clothes frequently to take off any sanding residues.

Perhaps I should add that woodwork is not my only experience with sanders-polishers: I have tackled several car windshields because we are close to an active volcano ("Popocatépetl"), and starting the winshield wipers when dry causes deep scratches. Using my old Bosch PE12AE takes me about four full hours to leave it polished... In constrast, with the Makita BO6050, the job is done in less than a third and half the effort (the makita weights more than the bosch!). For windshield polishing, a felt pad is used together with Cerium oxide paste as the abrasive.

My other polishing experience is with automobile paint finishing, where you cannot use any belt sanding apart from leveling some coarse welds and old time style molten tin fillers on body seams, and barely! But wood is different, because of grain. Having grain allows one to use the belt but only in the exact grain direction.

Obviously, nobody can use a belt sander on a glass windshield!, but on wood and some laminated plastics, in both of which there is a grain direction, you can definitely use a Belt Sander with the precautions I listed. perhaps you should try it before discarding it beforehand.

There was an old DeWalt accesory base for their belt sanders, that they no longer fabricate. It was expensive but was fully adjustable. It allowed the user to convert the hand belt sander into a bench fixed one, but also gave the opportunity of slightly lifting the belt permitting one to regulate the cutting depth of the belt...

As I was unable to buy it, I had to resort to the inexpensive Skil-7640, and found that tweaking the sheet metal accesory base extension plate is necessary, together with using only thin material sanding belts: the secret is avoiding the belt to protrude too much under the sander's baseplate, and using low speeds to avoid overheating the coating. With those precautions, I stand behind my testimony on using a belt sander to quikly and advantageously cutting the time to finish in half (at least).
Best Wishes.
 
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Amclaussen

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This is the adjustable base plate that DeWalt used to sell many years ago.
The idea behind it, is to carry the Belt sander ABOVE the woodwork, so as to prevent the belt going too deep and leaving gouges or marks. By carefully adjusting the sander height to accomodate the belt thickness in order to just remove or "shave" the varnish or old finish, you can definitely use a belt sander to speed up your work.

As this accesory is no longer available, the Skil 7640 inexpensive belt sander, that comes with a simpler sheetmetal base plate extension, and taking care of selecting only thinner material sanding belts, a much similar result can be easily done.
Sander base adjustable.jpg
 
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WannabeeCarpenter

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Whichever random orbital sander you decide to use....remember the 6 most important words....dust extraction, dust extraction, dust extraction!!!!

Take a pencil and lightly randomly draw all over the wood surface so that you can see where you've sanded. Once the pencil mark's have gone, use the pencil again, moving on to the next grit.
Use the highest quality abrasive you can afford and work your way up through the grits making sure to clean/ sweep the worktop inbetween changing grits.
Dont be tempted to want to sand to too high a grit..... If the surface is too smooth, the oil wont tend to penetrate as it should.
I use a Scotchbrite pad ( White) on my sander to apply the oil and it leaves a nice consistent finish.

I'm fortunate that I have Festool tools for a job like this and the package of a couple of their sanders and a speed adjustable auto dust extractor, make a job like sanding solid surface & wooden worktops a doddle.

If the original varnish/oil is a really heavy coating, then as suggested, use a cabinet scraper to remove the worst but be careful not to marr the wood too much or you will end up creating far more work for yourself during the sanding procedure.

Hope this helps.

Tim.


THANK YOU!!!!
 

WannabeeCarpenter

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I've got one of these
and am generally happy with it. Well within the budget and leaves enough for a detail sander too.

Bought one!
 

WannabeeCarpenter

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Ok so I bought the Erbauer ERO450 and some Abranet discs after the very helpful suggestions - thanks again to all.

I practiced using the sander on a patio table I've made and was very happy with the ease of use, the efficiency of the discs and the vacuum adaptor that was included! I've just used it again on a length of my worktop as a test and the results are beyond pleasing; I now wish I'd done this 4 years ago when I bought the house.

Following other comments I've ordered some Rubio Monocoat samples to make sure I get the colour just right. Maybe I'll post some pics once it's all done :)
 

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