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Union #2 vs Stanley #2

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ZippityNZ

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Sorry to be such a pain in the proverbial.

Since acquiring a Stanley # 2 earlier in the week, I have today, picked up a Union #2 from the same seller :)

Although the Union had had a crack in the sole braised, I was really after it for parts.

Unfortunately, the Record iron that accompanied the plane had been cut down from a larger size and was a poor fit and wouldn't seat into my Stanley #2, nor would the lever cap screw.

I have been advised that any Stanley lever cap screw will fit into a #2. I believe this not to be true, as none of my other lever cap screws will fit.

Does anyone here own a Stanley #2 and can you advise me what screw fits?

The brass adjuster nut from the Union is a perfect fit on my Stanley, so I am a happy chappy :)
 

ED65

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Glad to hear the brass adjuster from the Union fits the Stanley, is it a smaller one in keeping with the scale of the plane?

ZippityNZ":2sw8y1ds said:
Unfortunately, the Record iron that accompanied the plane had been cut down from a larger size and was a poor fit and wouldn't seat into my Stanley #2...
Too wide?

If it is this is easily enough fixed but looking at it from another direction is the Union maybe the one to get up and running here if you're looking for a user? What does one use a no. 2 for anyway? :D
 

profchris

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Well, I have a Quangsgeng no. 1, now no longer made I think. It gets a decent workout on musical instruments. It's particularly good at planing down sides to their final profile; these sides, including the linings are 3-4 mm thick.

The important thing here is to plane the right angle in, so it matches the domed back when I glue it on. I think the upright handle helps keep that angle, compared to a block plane.

So I'm sure I could use a no. 2 if these would be in the way ...
 

ED65

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ZippityNZ":25heartr said:
The brass adjuster nut is a 1" diameter, double rimmed variety - not sure if it is a Stanley or a Union, though.
Perfect.

That previous handle repair unfortunately good and solid?

ZippityNZ":25heartr said:
Guess I will file the iron down a hair :)
I didn't want to assume you had files but yes, most of an iron can be filed. Be aware the steel at the business end will be infilable or just barely able to be filed, and steel at that hardness will excessively wear or ruin a typical file. Now files are consumables, but just so you know in advance.

You can avoid this by grinding, or using a firm, stable abrasive (a very coarse diamond plate is ideal) for at least that portion. Can be a long and slow process by hand but you'll get there in the end.

ZippityNZ":25heartr said:
A "user"? - sacré bleu!!
:D Just collecting then?
 

ZippityNZ

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ED65":3fx8t4p7 said:
That previous handle repair unfortunately good and solid?
Both at this stage, although I may end up re-breaking it and gluing it again. Only time will tell :)

ED65":3fx8t4p7 said:
I didn't want to assume you had files but yes, most of an iron can be filed. Be aware the steel at the business end will be infilable or just barely able to be filed, and steel at that hardness will excessively wear or ruin a typical file. Now files are consumables, but just so you know in advance.
I did attack it with a file, but I think I may have sourced a replacement iron set in the USA, so I have placed the Record iron back on the Union plane.

ED65":3fx8t4p7 said:
:D Just collecting then?
Yep - at this stage anyway. My wife thinks I am nuts :D
 

ED65

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ZippityNZ":3m16g8mg said:
Yep - at this stage anyway. My wife thinks I am nuts :D
Wait until you try a baked japanning recipe in the house :twisted:

Seriously though, if you go down that particular rabbit hole and want to try any of the baked recipes do yourself a favour and do not try baking it indoors.
 

ZippityNZ

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I have 2 jars containing Japanning goo hatching in the hot water cupboard as we speak :)

And I have thought of buying an old second-hand electric oven for use downstairs in my workshop for this very use :) My small electric bench-top oven is just too small for my bigger planes :(
 

ED65

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I was hoping to give you some advice on this front before you dived in. Well anyway, now's as good a time as any!

Whatever you've done already, some points to be aware of:
  • If it has lumps or feels gritty it's not as good as it could be. This is not to say historical japanning never had lumps, it surely could (although better stuff much less so), but you can do better.
  • You do not have to use spar varnish for the air-curing variety, despite dire warnings of consequences if you use something else. However there's no reason not to, so go ahead if spar is already amongst your collected materials.
  • If you want to make a version specifically for thinner coats (suited to smaller tools like levels and squares) you might well need to add a black pigment. Lamp black is perhaps the ideal choice but any black pigment will do, they're all compatible with an oil binder.
  • If using dry pigment it's best to thoroughly blend this with some of the binder before adding to the whole mass, trust me on this. Alternatively start with a quality black oil paint where this has already been done for you (I would recommend this).
  • Last but not least don't be a slave to any recipe's formula with regard to the amount of turpentine, xylene or white spirit! This is both a matter of preference and may need to be varied to suit variations in the other components, chiefly the viscosity of the varnish or oil used.

Are you pre-dissolving the gilsonite or asphaltum in the solvent before mixing with the binding ingredient(s)? The recipes that call for this I feel are superior to the ones that don't, irrespective of whether there's a sieving or filtering operation.
 

ZippityNZ

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Both of my jars of paint have not "thickened" to my liking, but who knows, they both may be fine.

I used a mix of asphaltum, mineral turpentine and boiled linseed oil.

The real test will be when I get around to using them :)

The small bench-top oven I referred to earlier, is located in my workshop. I originally purchased it to cure the epoxy when I was installing magnets into my slot car motors :)

There is no way that I would venture to use the kitchen wall oven. SWMBO would kill me :D
 

ED65

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Hate to say this but there's a chance they'll never fully thicken. The heat will certainly help but what you know of as mineral turpentine and we call white spirit might not be strong enough to fully dissolve the asphaltum, most especially if you used a low-odour or odourless variety as these have a noticeably reduced solvent action.

There's a reason so many current formulas still use turpentine, or have substituted xylene.
 

ZippityNZ

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I think you are right. My "concoctions" do not appear to be dissolving to an acceptable level.

We have a product out here called Thinners which contains 30-60% Toluene, 10-30%Acetone, 1-10% Methyl Isobutyl ketone and 1-10% cyclohexane.

Do you think that would work as a substitute for Turps?

Failing that, I guess I will have to resort to using an aerosol can of black enamel motor paint :)
 

ED65

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ZippityNZ":9u306yap said:
We have a product out here called Thinners which contains 30-60% Toluene, 10-30%Acetone, 1-10% Methyl Isobutyl ketone and 1-10% cyclohexane.

Do you think that would work as a substitute for Turps?
I think quite likely yes. Toluene is certainly good enough to dissolve if xylene is, but the 30-60% for it does give me pause. I do hate breakdowns with such wide percentage ranges!

There are other possible uses for the thinners so I think it's certainly worth trying (other uses including removing PVA glue residue from wood). If you do get some test out on a small scale in a clean jar, just thinners and the asphaltum.

Do use appropriate cautions with this, it'll be significantly more toxic than mineral turpentine. Not enough that you have to be paranoid, but don't be complacent either. It will have quite a pronounced odour to tell you there are vapours about!

ZippityNZ":9u306yap said:
Failing that, I guess I will have to resort to using an aerosol can of black enamel motor paint :)
There's always that :) And the look isn't as different as many die-hards insist!

Some of the side-by-side comparisons that have been done, yes absolutely specific paints can look wildly different to the japanning beside them (often not as dark, maybe too satin). But this is by no means universal. You get the gloss level very close or bang on (and there are ways of 'cheating' that) and the paint is black enough and nobody would be able to tell in a double-blind test. The aforementioned purists will say they can always tell but I'm sure they're mistaken, in the same way that I'm sure audiophiles can't tell if electricity is going to their speakers through silver or copper 8)
 

ED65

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Oh P.S. your existing mixtures? Don't give up on them!

If you can put them aside for a while and just forget about them they might come good after some time. There are accounts of people coming across previous japanning experiments that were junk when put away but lo and behold a year or whatever later they were transformed and worked brilliantly.
 

ZippityNZ

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ED65":nd3joo8s said:
Oh P.S. your existing mixtures? Don't give up on them!

If you can put them aside for a while and just forget about them they might come good after some time. There are accounts of people coming across previous japanning experiments that were junk when put away but lo and behold a year or whatever later they were transformed and worked brilliantly.
Too late :(

They both went down the plug hole last night. The first batch was made June last year.
 

ED65

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ZippityNZ":12ad3bfi said:
They both went down the plug hole last night.
I hope not literally, aquatic toxicity and all that.

Thought I'd mention that straight xylene is available down there, Diggers do it for one. Bunnings list that if they're an option locally although it's a bit spendy. They also do an enamel thinners which is pretty much 50:50 white spirit and toluene in case you'd like to try that; it's much cheaper.
 

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

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For a real baked japanning appearance, that will go on cold, mix asphaltum with spar varnish, paint on in thin layers, and leave in the sun.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 

ED65

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How do you prevent clumps/grittiness with this formula Derek?
 

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

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Mix well. The asphaltum I used was a fine, brown powder (purchased on eBay - a little goes a long way). It dissolved well in the spar varnish.

Paint on very thin, and keep the surface horizontal to allow it to level until it dries. At first it is a dark brown, and then it gets darker, ending as black.

Here is a plane I did ...







This is a recipe that was given to me by the late Stephen Shepherd. This is what he wrote:

"I use roofing tar, but first let the volitiles evaporate, then mix it up with the McCloskey's Marine Spar Varnish (Gloss).

I put the stuff on both wood and metal and it seems to be very durable. It is important to prepare the surfaces, I use alcohol on metal to clean the surface of any grease or oil. I may wash them with soap and water first, surface prep is important. As far as baking the stuff, I of course don't bake the wood, but I will set the piece in direct sunlight, it helps cure the finish. On metal I do occasionally bake it but not at a very high temperature, 220 degrees F. I have done this for Ferro-type or tintype plates for a friend that does historic photography. If you don't bake it it is a bit soft for a while but in a few weeks it hardens up. I am sure Stanley and the other makers of metal planes used Japan Driers in their recipes, which I believe mine is close. As for the look, it is spot on, deep black with tinges of brown showing through on edges, this is the real look, which can not be achieved with any kind of modern paint or powder coating. It also works well for inpainting missing japanning on metal objects. I restore a lot of tin ware, which is where my experience is, as I do not own any modern metal planes."


Stephen confirmed: “Here in the US roofing tar is asphaltum. Asphaltum is available from a variety of sources and can be spendy, roofing tar is cheap, I have actually never bought any as when you tell someone that is tarring a roof, they will usually give you some.”

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
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