Turner, Naylor & Co "Northern" Grooving Plane

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Biliphuster

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I recently picked up this grooving plane on eBay for a reasonable price and since I had never encountered this branding thought some here may be interested. I had not heard of "Northern" planes before, and the fact that the only place I.Sorby is mentioned is on the toe of the plane a bit odd. I believe the northern refers to "The Northern Works" where Turner Naylor and co were based, with the I.Sorby coming from a Marples tie in.

You don't hear grooving planes discussed much in general, although they seem to be just as good as the fancy plow planes for most jobs, if somewhat less attractive.

Link to the album as the pictures are rather large

The plane arrived in great condition, just a few dents on the heel where it has seen some hammering. All I did was 3-in-1 the metal parts, give the wood a quick wipe with linseed and turps and sharpen the irons.

Anyone got any clues as to date? I think 1950ish seems reasonable, maybe a tad later
 
I did a little bit of digging into Turner, Naylor & Co recently.

I reckon your plane may have been made around the same time as our laminated plane irons. Between 1893 and 1909 when they were bought out by William Marples.

I haven't found any evidence of whether their products were branded Wm Marples & Sons from 1909 to 1963 or whether they continued with Turner Naylor branding.

ISORBY-Irons-zoom0.jpg
 
http://www.sorbyplanes.com/

Sorby "Northern" Beechwood Grooving Plane (Moving)
as illustrated in the Turner, Naylor & Co. 1938 catalogue.

"NORTHERN" Brand BEECHWOOD PLANES.
http://www.sorbyplanes.com/sorby-northe ... ne-moving/

The site is a work in progress and nothing to do with me.

I have a S77 bullnose rabbet plane in a very similar box to Matthews which I believe to be 1930's

My no.4 I.Sorby came in a very similar box but is unbranded.

Will add pictures later.
 
Mr_P":2qq0cz2s said:
http://www.sorbyplanes.com

That site seems nothing more than a click-through site for Ebay.

To quote from the 1938 catalogue itself:

"NORTHERN" Brand BEECHWOOD PLANES.

Modern methods of manufacture render it possible for us to offer this high-class range of Beechwood Planes at popular prices.

The Blocks are made from seasoned close-grained timber, carefully selected for its hard wearing qualities.

The Irons are faced with refined crucible cast Tool Steel, specially hardened and tempered to retain a keen cutting edge without constant resharpening.

Moving Grooving Planes
With Adjustable Fence and set of
3 Irons, 1⁄8, 3⁄16, 1⁄4 ins. ... 5/6 each

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUK/TurnerNa ... rCo-01.asp
says they closed in the early 1960s.

I've never heard of the "Northern" brand until now and I thought why would they use it when they've already got the long established "I Sorby" brand. My guess is the "Northern" brand is a cheaper line, hence the "popular prices". Similar to Marples' cheaper "BB" brand, Marples owned Turner, Naylor & Co at that time so the Northern and BB planes could have been made at the same place.
 
Thank you all for the interesting additions.

Matthew, I think my plane is from a later period than your irons, the fonts on the labels certainly seem more modern to me. The box was stapled as well.


I could see it being a more budget friendly line, the screw bearing plates in the fence are not retained and are rather basic, the skate is not secured in a brass holder, but apart from that I can't see any skimping, it's also a cracking performer.
 
JohnPW":3lact82b said:
That site seems nothing more than a click-through site for Ebay.

Hrem. This is my site and I did state that it's a work in progress. I've been writing a book on I. Sorby/Turner, Naylor & Co. for almost three years. Most of the information - if not all - will also be available on the site once the book is published.

johnPW":3lact82b said:
To quote from the 1938 catalogue itself:

"NORTHERN" Brand BEECHWOOD PLANES.

Modern methods of manufacture render it possible for us to offer this high-class range of Beechwood Planes at popular prices.

The Blocks are made from seasoned close-grained timber, carefully selected for its hard wearing qualities.

The Irons are faced with refined crucible cast Tool Steel, specially hardened and tempered to retain a keen cutting edge without constant resharpening.

Moving Grooving Planes
With Adjustable Fence and set of
3 Irons, 1⁄8, 3⁄16, 1⁄4 ins. ... 5/6 each

Yes, these were planes made at the Northern Tool Works from the 1920's to when the when the plant closed (see below). They may have been available earlier than the 1920's but I have no actual proof of that at this stage.

JohnPW":3lact82b said:
Link for Turner Naylor history on wkfinetools
says they closed in the early 1960s.

1963 to be precise. That's when the company - which was run as a separate company even though it was owned by Marples - was finally wound up and the buildings sold and demolished.

JohnPW":3lact82b said:
I've never heard of the "Northern" brand until now and I thought why would they use it when they've already got the long established "I Sorby" brand. My guess is the "Northern" brand is a cheaper line, hence the "popular prices". Similar to Marples' cheaper "BB" brand, Marples owned Turner, Naylor & Co at that time so the Northern and BB planes could have been made at the same place.

They used the two trademarks interchangeably, depending on the products. The "I. SORBY" mark was registered on February 15, 1859 after already being in use for almost 50 years. Contrary to popular belief, "I. SORBY" does not stand for Isaac Sorby, But John Sorby. This is a different John Sorby than the more famous one residing at Spital Hill. He was the nephew of John Sorby of "JOHN SORBY & SONS" (with its ‘I. & H. SORBY’ mark).

I should add that Geoffrey Tweedale has been working with me on much of the background work, sourcing documents etc. and sending scans to me. I'm indebted to him for this work as much of it has been quite revelatory. Geoffrey also wrote a short history which can be seen by doing a search at the wkfinetools website (unfortunately it appears I can't post links yet so I can't give the actual URL)

Mr_P":3lact82b said:
I have a S77 bullnose rabbet plane in a very similar box to Matthews which I believe to be 1930's

My no.4 I.Sorby came in a very similar box but is unbranded.

Yes, these were made from around 1932 to 1939/1940. If you put them up against Marples planes of the same era you will see that they're almost exactly alike (apart from the branding). The reason for this is because all of the early "M" Series Marples planes were made by Turner, Naylor & Co. at the Northern Tool Works. After the war all of the jigs, moulds etc. were moved to Marples own Hibernia Works and the planes continued to be made there. As far as metal planes were concerned the I. SORBY brand was dropped during the early stages of the war. Both the Sorby and Marples planes were finished in the same red enamel, with some parts (such as frogs) often finished in black.
 
Hello again Cameron,

I'd appreciate it, if you or one of the mods could edit your post as they make John's comments look like mine.

Really looking forward to the book, I have lots of questions I'm sure it will answer.

Doh so the presence of Mr P is no use in dating things ?
mr-punch-first-appearance-i-sorby-t82871.html

Sorry think you need 3 posts to put a link on this site.

Thanks,
Carl
 
Mr_P":1sqbnbco said:
Hello again Cameron,

I'd appreciate it, if you or one of the mods could edit your post as they make John's comments look like mine.

Really looking forward to the book, I have lots of questions I'm sure it will answer.

Doh so the presence of Mr P is no use in dating things ?
mr-punch-first-appearance-i-sorby-t82871.html

Sorry think you need 3 posts to put a link on this site.

Thanks,
Carl

Sorry about that, Carl. I've edited the post so it should look fine now.

Yeah, unfortunately I think precise dates can be a bit hit and miss sometimes, but I would say that most of the "I. SORBY" marked chisels you see would be from the 1870's onwards. Later ones from the 1950's & 1960's are easy enough to date though as they usually have transfers on the handles.

Very early chisels usually have other identifying features, such as differences in the actual shape of the blade etc.

Unfortunately the book - the rewrite actually - has been problematic the past 18 months due to illness in the family (my mum finally passed away a fortnight ago). It's on the brink of being finished fairly soon though but I've been saying that for a while (sorry).

By the way matthewwh and Biliphuster, do either of you mind if I use your images on the website? I will give due credit of course.
 
matthewwh":3d12ok3v said:
I did a little bit of digging into Turner, Naylor & Co recently.

I reckon your plane may have been made around the same time as our laminated plane irons. Between 1893 and 1909 when they were bought out by William Marples.

I haven't found any evidence of whether their products were branded Wm Marples & Sons from 1909 to 1963 or whether they continued with Turner Naylor branding.

ISORBY-Irons-zoom0.jpg

Hi Matthew. These are later plane irons - from the 1920's/30's to the 1950's. The affiliation with Marples went back a long way - possibly as far back as the early 1860's. Even after Marples bought Turner, Naylor & Co. outright in 1909/10 the company continued to trade as a standalone, largely independent, business until 1963.
 
C.R. Miller":1wkje1ca said:
By the way matthewwh and Biliphuster, do either of you mind if I use your images on the website? I will give due credit of course.

Fine by me. If I had known the photos would be put to some use I might have spent a bit more time getting the lighting right, oh well. It seems an interesting site and I'm happy to help out.
 
C.R. Miller":2fuwp5j2 said:
JohnPW":2fuwp5j2 said:
That site seems nothing more than a click-through site for Ebay.

Hrem. This is my site and I did state that it's a work in progress. I've been writing a book on I. Sorby/Turner, Naylor & Co. for almost three years. Most of the information - if not all - will also be available on the site once the book is published.

Apologies for my comment. I'm looking forwards to new info on the site.
 
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