They must be having a right laugh

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

Trainee neophyte

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
2,941
Reaction score
860
Location
Greece
Here's a good game: the US state department released a document explaining how Russian disinformation was all lies and propaganda, and everything is the fault of the Putin Regime. The Russian foreign ministry then released a document refuting the US document. The game is to be able to prove factually which side is lying the most.

For example: the US state the following:

FICTION: Ukraine and Ukrainian government officials are the aggressor in the Russia-Ukraine relationship.https://www.state.gov/fact-vs-fiction-russian-disinformation-on-ukraine/#_edn1

FACT: False statements from the Putin regime blame the victim, Ukraine, for Russia’s aggression. Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, occupies Crimea, controls armed forces in the Donbas, and has now amassed more than 100,000 troops on the border with Ukraine while President Putin threatens “retaliatory military-technical” measures if his demands are not met.​
And the the Russian rebuttal:
The blame for destabilising the situation in Ukraine lies entirely with the United States and other NATO countries, which supported the coup in February 2014, resulting in the toppling of the duly elected president and nationalists coming to power. Fearing for their own safety, residents of Crimea and Donbass chose not to live under the government of the followers of Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych. As a result, Crimea reunited with Russia, the Donetsk and Lugansk regions declared independence, and Kiev unleashed a civil war against Donbass, which continues to this day.​
 

WillM

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2021
Messages
13
Reaction score
6
Location
Eastbourne, UK
No one was saying ww2 was a russian endeavour, but i did clearly say they knew what was about to happen, got ready to join in.
The russians suffered badly, but they were not innocent, that is the point
They did more than their share winning the war. As for trying to stay out of it, there is a far more egregious example.
 

Blackswanwood

Still Learning
Joined
17 Nov 2018
Messages
1,395
Reaction score
1,725
Location
North Yorkshire
Here's a good game: the US state department released a document explaining how Russian disinformation was all lies and propaganda, and everything is the fault of the Putin Regime. The Russian foreign ministry then released a document refuting the US document. The game is to be able to prove factually which side is lying the most.

For example: the US state the following:

FICTION: Ukraine and Ukrainian government officials are the aggressor in the Russia-Ukraine relationship.Fact vs. Fiction: Russian Disinformation on Ukraine - United States Department of State

FACT: False statements from the Putin regime blame the victim, Ukraine, for Russia’s aggression. Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, occupies Crimea, controls armed forces in the Donbas, and has now amassed more than 100,000 troops on the border with Ukraine while President Putin threatens “retaliatory military-technical” measures if his demands are not met.
And the the Russian rebuttal:
The blame for destabilising the situation in Ukraine lies entirely with the United States and other NATO countries, which supported the coup in February 2014, resulting in the toppling of the duly elected president and nationalists coming to power. Fearing for their own safety, residents of Crimea and Donbass chose not to live under the government of the followers of Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych. As a result, Crimea reunited with Russia, the Donetsk and Lugansk regions declared independence, and Kiev unleashed a civil war against Donbass, which continues to this day.

It’s also worth noting that when the “west” helped pave a way for the dismantling of the eastern bloc assurances were given to Russia that NATO would not extend beyond unified Germany.

I guess the view was that it would be a non-issue as everything would be harmonious. It’s not been quite as simple as that and Russia can rightly say that this promise was broken. It’s not and easy one to square though as democratically elected governments across Eastern Europe seem to favour being part of NATO and the EU as opposed to part of a new eastern bloc.
 

WillM

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2021
Messages
13
Reaction score
6
Location
Eastbourne, UK
Here's a good game: the US state department released a document explaining how Russian disinformation was all lies and propaganda, and everything is the fault of the Putin Regime. The Russian foreign ministry then released a document refuting the US document. The game is to be able to prove factually which side is lying the most.

For example: the US state the following:

FICTION: Ukraine and Ukrainian government officials are the aggressor in the Russia-Ukraine relationship.Fact vs. Fiction: Russian Disinformation on Ukraine - United States Department of State

FACT: False statements from the Putin regime blame the victim, Ukraine, for Russia’s aggression. Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, occupies Crimea, controls armed forces in the Donbas, and has now amassed more than 100,000 troops on the border with Ukraine while President Putin threatens “retaliatory military-technical” measures if his demands are not met.
And the the Russian rebuttal:
The blame for destabilising the situation in Ukraine lies entirely with the United States and other NATO countries, which supported the coup in February 2014, resulting in the toppling of the duly elected president and nationalists coming to power. Fearing for their own safety, residents of Crimea and Donbass chose not to live under the government of the followers of Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych. As a result, Crimea reunited with Russia, the Donetsk and Lugansk regions declared independence, and Kiev unleashed a civil war against Donbass, which continues to this day.
Plus, why hasn’t the UN approved Minsk peace agreement been implemented? Instead the US (and minions) are trying to work up Ukrainian neo-Nazi militias to conduct a suicide mission on Donbass and Lugansk. If Russia intervenes to protect the ethnic Russians, it will be an “attack on Ukraine”.

The US has stated it won’t intervene militarily, but respond with sanctions. Europe relies on Russia for 40% of its gas, and the Germans are desperate to get Nordstream2 going.

Ultimately the US wants to prevent a trading zone forming between the EU, Russia and China - the BRI initiative. They don’t care in the least if your gas costs double and the EU sinks into a recession (which is what think tanks are suggesting will result from sanctions).

Or, if a hundred thousand die, or Europe is swamped with a million refugees. They did the same in Iraq, Libya and Syria.
 

Spectric

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
3,880
Reaction score
2,047
Location
North Cumbria
The US has stated it won’t intervene militarily,
But will Putin think that supplying military hardware is a military intervention. It is ok for the Americans to provoke a conflict because they have their own gas and oil reserves but here in the UK and Europe we are on the end of a pipe controlled by the Russians so we need some measure of self preservation.

It all comes down to survival of the fittest, if you were a weedy little kid in the playground would you make freinds with other weedy little kids or with the big and strong? We have paid our debt to America and when they were the big boys in the playground it was good to be close to them but now the balance of power has changed, China is soon to become number one and the east is getting ever stronger so is it not time to start making freinds with the new big boys in the playground! At the moment the biggest threat to us all is not Putin, it is Biden with his engrained cold war thinking and Borris who wants to make a name for himself on the world stage and at least do something comparable to Thatcher.
 

Jacob

Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
Joined
7 Jul 2010
Messages
22,468
Reaction score
2,510
Location
Derbyshire

D_W

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2015
Messages
9,519
Reaction score
1,914
Location
PA, US
Read all about it! :unsure: "On 23 August 1939, after unsuccessful efforts to form an anti-fascist alliance with Western powers, the Soviets signed a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany."
.
comical - as if they were hoping for western help to be generous and charitable and work for the greater good.

They saw fascist governments as problematic only because the fascists squashed the communists in the battle of western european ideals.

They both had one thing in common - they hated capitalists and the change that capitalism and economic development (faster than their own) brought.
 

D_W

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2015
Messages
9,519
Reaction score
1,914
Location
PA, US
In terms of world peace though, things are currently better than they have been since WW2 then ever before.

That much is true. It's too bad peace is views as problematic by factions on both sides (communists and former communists as well as western governments). Putin needs someone to work against or his popularity drops. long term constant popularity is more important to him than it is to a US president as the office is lifetime for him and if opposition gets in, he'll probably be jailed and outed.
 

Jameshow

Established Member
Joined
4 Oct 2020
Messages
2,856
Reaction score
1,600
Location
Bradford
Bid
But will Putin think that supplying military hardware is a military intervention. It is ok for the Americans to provoke a conflict because they have their own gas and oil reserves but here in the UK and Europe we are on the end of a pipe controlled by the Russians so we need some measure of self preservation.

It all comes down to survival of the fittest, if you were a weedy little kid in the playground would you make freinds with other weedy little kids or with the big and strong? We have paid our debt to America and when they were the big boys in the playground it was good to be close to them but now the balance of power has changed, China is soon to become number one and the east is getting ever stronger so is it not time to start making freinds with the new big boys in the playground! At the moment the biggest threat to us all is not Putin, it is Biden with his engrained cold war thinking and Borris who wants to make a name for himself on the world stage and at least do something comparable to Thatcher.
Biden and Boris a danger?🤣🤣🤣🤣

Biden isn't sure what day it is!

Boris is on the ropes from his own party and public at large and is too interesting in procuring the next baby....!
 

Droogs

Is that chisel shar ... Ow
Joined
14 Mar 2013
Messages
5,438
Reaction score
2,405
Location
Edinburgh
That much is true. It's too bad peace is views as problematic by factions on both sides (communists and former communists as well as western governments). Putin needs someone to work against or his popularity drops. long term constant popularity is more important to him than it is to a US president as the office is lifetime for him and if opposition gets in, he'll probably be jailed and outed.
In the last 3400 years there have been a total of less than 270 days of full peace on earth where no war of any kind was being fought. since WW2 there have actually been 2 days
 

Droogs

Is that chisel shar ... Ow
Joined
14 Mar 2013
Messages
5,438
Reaction score
2,405
Location
Edinburgh
That really says it all, this planet is just to small for all of us to live on peacefully and get on with each other.
That's why I endorse the Iluminati Partei for global population control. The sooner I get my own continent the better
👲🦹‍♂️🦹‍♂️🦹‍♂️:devilish:
 

baldkev

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2020
Messages
1,513
Reaction score
671
Location
devon
They did more than their share winning the war. As for trying to stay out of it, there is a far more egregious example.

They did, but mostly because they were nearly wiped out and needed revenge for the atrocities etc. If germany hadnt attacked them, they wouldnt have gone against the germans. In fact, if germany hadnt attacked them, things would have turned out differently.
 

artie

Sawdust manufacturer.
Joined
12 Jan 2015
Messages
2,469
Reaction score
822
Location
Norn Iron
"They" reckon the population of the world in the 12th century was one sixteenth of what it is now.
It wasn't very peaceful then either.

I wonder what today's population would be if we had all just got along and helped each other out.
 

Spectric

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
3,880
Reaction score
2,047
Location
North Cumbria
I wonder what today's population would be if we had all just got along and helped each other out.
We really cannot win either way, well not all of us anyway. If there were no wars then instead of military technology getting the investment it could have been medical and health. Now you have even more people surviving and an even bigger population and global warming would be even worse so looks like wars and conflicts are nothing more than population control.
 

Pallet Fancier

Established Member
Joined
3 Jan 2021
Messages
140
Reaction score
60
Location
Cheshire
What ship is it?

HMS Duncan looked quite modern and we'll run?

Cheers James
Duncan was a Type 45 destroyer, about a decade old. The current frigates were all designed before the Falklands, redesigned in a hurry as a result of Falklands war experience, and were only ever intended to last for 25 years. That they're showing their age is not surprising. That their replacements have been slowed down to save money is criminal.
 

Pallet Fancier

Established Member
Joined
3 Jan 2021
Messages
140
Reaction score
60
Location
Cheshire
I find it very annoying that they keep saying the Russians are going to destroy UK coms, no they are not.

It's edited, and the interviews are structured, so as to increase the drama.

Russia may not "destroy" UK or European or trans Atlantic cable links, but they will definitely attach devices to them to hack into, read, and perhaps even disrupt, the signals. They have before. So has everyone with a sufficiently advanced submarine capability. They can do everything from steal intelligence to game the international stock market. I think this is worthy of the effort to try to stop them.

I know a couple of guys who work in places like RUSI. It's been common knowledge in diplomatic circles ever since Putin came to power that Russia regards itself as at war with the West, but simply doesn't come out and say it. If you reconsider everything that's happened over the last decades in that light, it makes much more sense. The West, meanwhile, has been spending a "peace dividend"... which is more like maxing out your credit card and having no ability to pay it back.
 

Pallet Fancier

Established Member
Joined
3 Jan 2021
Messages
140
Reaction score
60
Location
Cheshire
There is no point having a flotilla of ships when the current threat is someone in their back bedroom on the internet or multiple semi-organised idealists prepared to die for their cause.

Keyword here is internet. It's used by good guys, bad guys and the grey middle ground, alike. It travels, primarily, through deep sea cables (satellites can't match that bandwidth and never will). How will you protect those cables from being hacked for information theft, from being disrupted intentionally, or even outright cut, without a "flotilla of ships"?

Cyber is all the fashion, sure, but it's just like trying to fight a war with air power alone: can't do it. At some point, you have to put boots on the ground, or in this case, anti-submarine frigates in the same water as the other guy's cable-cutting sub.

Two weeks ago Norway reported that the deep sea cable that it uses for secure comms with its satellite receiver station in the Arctic had gone down. Gosh, I wonder why? Why would someone want to reduce the ability of parts of NATO to get information from surveillance satellites that were monitoring places like Ukraine? Who has the ability to do that? Who has submarine bases with easy access to the Arctic, and whose submarines routinely pass through those waters on their way into the Atlantic? Answers on a postcard...
 

Latest posts

Top