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JobandKnock

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Yes, but the Soviets did use it as an excuse to grab a large part of eastern Europe after WWII.... Which is a point we've already covered, surely?
 

Jacob

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No, I'd already mentioned the Holodomor - that last lot was to illustrate it wasn't Stalin's only bit of nastiness. At least Mr Blair got a good book out of it...
You may have forgotten the Bengal famine, 1943 largely blamed on Churchill. An estimated 2.1–3 million, died of starvation, malaria, and other diseases aggravated by malnutrition, population displacement, unsanitary conditions and lack of health care.
 

Fergie 307

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Can you explain this to me?
From my limilted memory of the news in the late 80s/ early 99s, didnt boris yeltsin negotiate to give it back and dismantle the ussr?
Putin seems to want it back.....

And as far as gaining countries through self defence, not sure i understand that either. After all, the Russians were allies of germany and if fact i believe, joined in at the start invading poland. They just didnt realise the germans wanted russia to..... they sent the 8th on a rolling start even as ribbentropp promised the russians they were best buddies.

Its not widely reported in our history, but the Russians arguably had the worst time of all during the war ( china suffered badly at the hands of the japanese )

The Russians really suffered and i guess there was a reluctance to help them after poland and other countries they 'annexed' whilst definitely not in self defence
I don't think either Stalin or Hitler regarded the agreement as being worth the paper it was written on. For Hitler it was a good way to secure his eastern flank while he turned his attention to the west. For Stalin it bought some time to prepare for what I am sure he saw as the inevitability of an eventual Nazi invasion. And let's not forget that the reason the Soviet military performed so badly initially was largely due to Stalin having had most of the Soviet officer class murdered, on the basis that they might prove a threat.to him. Later The Soviets incurred incredible casualties largely due to inept leadership, and the use of human wave tactics. They lost some 20 million, an incredible figure. But it is very true that their sacrifice paved the way for eventual victory. Remember it was Stalin who said "a single human death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" sums up his attitude rather well I think.
 

Fergie 307

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You may have forgotten the Bengal famine, 1943 largely blamed on Churchill. An estimated 2.1–3 million, died of starvation, malaria, and other diseases aggravated by malnutrition, population displacement, unsanitary conditions and lack of health care.
Which, although tragic is nothing compared to the numbers of his own people Stalin starved to death in the years following his ascent to.power, lower estimates run to over 5 million, oh and not to forget the hundreds of thousands murdered by the NKVD in various purges to safeguard his own position. Once again Jacob I am left wondering what you were doing during history lessons at school.
 

Fergie 307

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Of course I don't classify Katyn as self defence.
The Germans invaded in Poland 16 days before the Russians.
WW2 was not caused by the Soviets and their short lived alliance with the Nazis followed failure of moves to alliance with the west.
For goodness sake Jacob get a grip of your history. The Germans were training troops, aircrew and collaborating with the Soviets in the design of tanks from the mid 30's long before any discussion of alliance with anyone else. Where do you think German tanks and aircraft were developed and tested.
 

Jacob

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Which, although tragic is nothing compared to the numbers of his own people Stalin starved to death in the years following his ascent to.power, lower estimates run to over 5 million, oh and not to forget the hundreds of thousands murdered by the NKVD in various purges to safeguard his own position. Once again Jacob I am left wondering what you were doing during history lessons at school.
Nobody is defending Stalin or anything he did. He was a tyrant and dictator.
What has all this got to do with Putin and the Ukraine in 2022
 

Jacob

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For goodness sake Jacob get a grip of your history. The Germans were training troops, aircrew and collaborating with the Soviets in the design of tanks from the mid 30's long before any discussion of alliance with anyone else. Where do you think German tanks and aircraft were developed and tested.
Yes it is well known.
And what has that got to do with Putin and the Ukraine in 2022?
 

baldkev

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Of course I don't classify Katyn as self defence.
The Germans invaded in Poland 16 days before the Russians.
WW2 was not caused by the Soviets and their short lived alliance with the Nazis followed failure of moves to alliance with the west.

No one was saying ww2 was a russian endeavour, but i did clearly say they knew what was about to happen, got ready to join in.
The russians suffered badly, but they were not innocent, that is the point
 

Fergie 307

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You may have forgotten the Bengal famine, 1943 largely blamed on Churchill. An estimated 2.1–3 million, died of starvation, malaria, and other diseases aggravated by malnutrition, population displacement, unsanitary conditions and lack of health care.
I think it fair to say that this was more the result of staggering ineptitude on the part of officials, as distinct from a deliberate policy. That is the difference. Stalin embarked on measures that he KNEW would kill huge numbers of his own people, but considered them expendable in pursuit of political ideology. If course if you rely on propaganda vehicles of the Russian state for your knowledge of history then you will not know this. Perhaps if you tried taking the socialist filter off your reading material you might get a more accurate view of history. It strikes me than you appear to be the sort of person who only searches for information from sources that you know are pre disposed to echo your own, rather naive, view of the world.
 

Fergie 307

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Appalling. Nobody is saying it was not.
But what's it got to do with the Ukraine and Putin in 2022?
Jacob, back against the wall, can't answer difficult questions about the nonsense you are talking? Let's change the subject. Very like Boris, who'd have thought you two would have anything in common? There's a wonderful saying you might want to think about. "Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt".
 

Blackswanwood

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Yes it is well known.
And what has that got to do with Putin and the Ukraine in 2022?
Quite a lot actually. These events led to the USSR being created which in turn has shaped the politics, attitudes, loyalties and beliefs in Eastern Europe/Russia today.

It really seems all you are wanting to do is over simplify history and turn the thread into a pointless Top Trumps of atrocities and the bad behaviour of despots and governments around the world. Is arguing and your view of the world being the only right one rather than finding common areas of agreement important to you?
 

RobinBHM

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Jacob, back against the wall, can't answer difficult questions about the nonsense you are talking? Let's change the subject. Very like Boris, who'd have thought you two would have anything in common? There's a wonderful saying you might want to think about. "Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt".
Mr Two Pushsticks never ever ever ever admits he is wrong or backs down :)


Sadly I know nothing about the subject of this thread so will have to read up on it before commenting.
 

Trainee neophyte

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I think it fair to say that this was more the result of staggering ineptitude on the part of officials, as distinct from a deliberate policy
That's very orwellian: when they do it they commit intentional genocide, but when we do it, it is just an unfortunate and regrettable mistake. Dead is still dead.

From wikipedia re the Holodomor "Whether the Holodomor was genocide is still the subject of academic debate, as are the causes of the famine and intentionality of the deaths.[19][20][21] Some scholars believe that the famine was planned by Joseph Stalin to eliminate a Ukrainian independence movement.. Others suggest that the man-made famine was a consequence of Soviet industrialisation".

The pre-soviet history of Russia is one of constant famines, for what it's worth. The Holodomor seems to have been the last one, so we could perhaps give the USSR some credit for fixing the problem after that? Either way, the USSR is not modern Russia, in the same way that 1920s empire Britain is not the same as the current Bojo economic miracle. Conflating the two seems a fairly unnecessary thing to do, other than continue 60 years of cold war propaganda.

Here's the BBC confirming that the Bengal famine was entirely intentional, even if the goal wasn't direct murder of 3 -5 million: BBC - WW2 People's War - 3 Million Dead in Artificial Famine in Bengal

None of this has any relevance regarding a Russian military incursion (or invasion if you go with Biden's correction). I'm coming around to the idea that this is an entirely western propaganda effort, so that when Russia doesn't invade, Nato can declare victory, and then pull nuclear capable missiles out of Poland, Hungary etc. Declare victory and run away is a well practiced policy used on a regular basis.

Does anyone have any good reasons as to why Russia would want to take over the failed state of the Ukraine? They already have the best bits - the rest of it is just bankrupt chaos.
 

Jacob

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Mr Two Pushsticks never ever ever ever admits he is wrong or backs down :)


Sadly I know nothing about the subject of this thread so will have to read up on it before commenting.
It was about tub thumping more than anything.
 

Jacob

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Quite a lot actually. These events led to the USSR being created which in turn has shaped the politics, attitudes, loyalties and beliefs in Eastern Europe/Russia today.
As is true of every nation in the world, for better or worse, one way or another.
 

selectortone

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Does anyone have any good reasons as to why Russia would want to take over the failed state of the Ukraine? They already have the best bits - the rest of it is just bankrupt chaos.
Well, there is the small matter of the security of the gas pipeline to Europe that is currently worth around net £5bn to Gazprom per quarter. (Made more crucial since Germany's refusal to allow Nordstream II)

 

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