The Ultimate Grinding-Sharpening Set Up?

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Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

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Having just posted on the Japanese chisel grinding thread, it seemed appropriate to post a link to a very recent entry on my website ..

The Ultimate Grinding-Sharpening Set Up? http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... SetUp.html

This is either going to stimulate and motivate some to do the same as I have - to a lesser or greater extent - and it will cause others to froth at the mouth :D Nothing like a good sharpening thread to get the pulse going - better than aerobics? :D

As a postscript, none of the information here is new for turners, but it seems to be for non-turners. If you are in the latter group, then it may change your sharpening world.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Hi Matthew

The amount of heat generated by the CBN wheel is a tiny fraction of the heat generated by a white or similar wheel. The 80 grit creates less heat than the 180 grit, which one would expect since it removes waste faster. The amount of heat generated is no more than warm to the touch. It is not high enough to threaten the temper of the steel.

The wheels were originally intended for HSS, but they are fine for any hardened steel. For this reason I would hesitate to use them on Japanese blades, since these have a soft iron or mild steel backing. That would clog up the grit (just remove this by grinding hard steel again). I think that there would likely be an increase in heat if the grit is clogged and not cutting correctly.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Interesting. Thanks for posting. I'd be interested in seeing a close up of those wheels. Hope this doesn't turn into a bun fight.
 
Interesting Derek - a very interesting take on how to sharpen quickly and efficiently. I am, however, also concerned this will turn into The Sharpening Wars, episode XXXX. Is there anywhere selling them on this side of the pond?
Regards Mark
 
Interesting Derek - a very interesting take on how to sharpen quickly and efficiently. I am, however, also concerned this will turn into The Sharpening Wars, episode XXXX. Is there anywhere selling them on this side of the pond?
Regards Mark
 
"some of them in my opinion are a waste of time and money, and some of mine are no doubt for others a waste of time and money!"

:lol: That is definitely not in the spirit of the sharpening wars - you are supposed to say that your method is the best, and everyone else is wrong. Seriously, very interesting. When I'm settled again I'm very, very tempted to buy a CBN wheel.
 
Nice setup Derek.

It's not the way I sharpen ny chisels but that's not a problem.

Pete
 
I was always taught that the secret to having sharp tools was to most of your energy into the flat side of the blade. Not the other way round.

For hollow ground bevels Derek has the ideal set up. Kudos.

I personally will continue to hone my blades to a flat bevel.

Stewie;
 
I wanted to love the Spyderco stones but the truth of the matter is that they load too quickly when used dry IMO. So, to me, the 'dry' aspect is a nonstarter. If you use them dry you'll be making plenty of trips to the sink to scrub them clean. The ultrafine stone ceases to cut well in pretty short order or loads steel in little lumps that can be felt especially when backing off the flat side of a cutter or chisel. Feels like a gravel road to me. Not good. I could scrape little lumps of swarf off with a fingernail. I'd obviously let them go a bit too long before a scrubbing but it didn't take long for them to get to that state in the first place.

They have other desirable attributes, but for a stone in one's normal lineup and honing routine better plan on using a fluid of some sort.

A Scary Sharp system is really the only thing that works well dry. All you need for it is a bench brush with regard to the swarf issue.
 
Over in the world of knives made from exotic (very hard and very wear resistant) steels, CBN (in various bonds and carriers) is quite the hot topic.

BugBear
 
CStanford":ogl3a99a said:
I wanted to love the Spyderco stones but the truth of the matter is that they load too quickly when used dry IMO. So, to me, the 'dry' aspect is a nonstarter. If you use them dry you'll be making plenty of trips to the sink to scrub them clean. The ultrafine stone ceases to cut well in pretty short order or loads steel in little lumps that can be felt especially when backing off the flat side of a cutter or chisel. Feels like a gravel road to me. Not good. I could scrape little lumps of swarf off with a fingernail. I'd obviously let them go a bit too long before a scrubbing but it didn't take long for them to get to that state in the first place.

They have other desirable attributes, but for a stone in one's normal lineup and honing routine better plan on using a fluid of some sort.

A Scary Sharp system is really the only thing that works well dry. All you need for it is a bench brush with regard to the swarf issue.

Charles, I've been using the Spyderco stones for a while now and have not experienced them loading up. In fact, this has surprised me since perceptions from using waterstones for 20 years are hard to shake - I constantly want to hold them under running water and wipe them down, or run a diamond stone over them to ensure they are flat! They just keep working.

George Wilson was the one who convinced me to try them. He has used them for years. If George had an issue, then he would have said something. Quite the reverse. Still, the stones are an experiment. Fortunately, they are relatively cheap. So far I am happy.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Lovely setup Derek! We have a Tormek in our workshop but after seeing this, and if I were buying, I would be looking at the CBN & 1/2 speed grinder. I like the dust free and low heat qualities you mention.

The spydercos also sound like something I would also consider if I were considering a change. The qualities you mention sound very attractive, I wonder if Charles bagged a duff one?

Like Stewie said, if you like to hollow grind this would take some beating.
 
I don't think I got a 'bum' one. I just used it a lot. If somebody finds a honing stone that when used dry doesn't build up a glaze and therefore progressively ceases to cut then do let me know. Ceramics are certainly not it. You'll spend a lot of time at the sink if you spend a lot of time in the shop.

I think they're good stones, they just need to be used with a fluid, at least the benchstones used for plane irons and chisels do.
 
I've used the Spyderco ceramic stones for a period of several years. Like every other method of honing, they have their advantages and disadvantages.

The first sharpening method I used was a Norton India combination stone, in a wooden box. It worked fine to put edges on tools, but in my ignorance I didn't seal the box with varnish or similar, so it soaked up oil from the stone, and started contaminating everything it touched. So I put it aside, and tried waterstones, which were very fashionable at the time. These worked fine too, but in the limited space I had to work in, the mess was a major problem - they are not bench-friendly.

And so I came to look at other ways to get an edge. I bought a ceramic stone (the medium) and found that it was not only bench-friendly, it was very compact to store. It gave a fair edge (comparable to or slightly better than the India), though it was not as fast-cutting as the India. I later invested in (using the word 'invested' deliberately - these things are damned expensive in the UK) an ultra-fine, which cuts very slowly but gives an excellent edge.

However, I found that neither stone likes being used dry - both my medium and extra-fine tended to glaze with ground-in metal, and cleaning them needed quite aggressive scrubbing. I took to using them with water having a little drop of washing-up liquid in it to kill the surface tension, and have never subsequently had to clean them.

The oft-reported problem that the medium stone is not flat is true, though mine was out of flat by only about 0.25mm over it's full surface, so I used it as it was; I wasn't going to shell out for a very expensive diamond stone just for the one job of flattening it. Despite not being absolutely flat, it did a perfectly acceptable job. The ultra-fine stone had one face ground flat, and apart from some residual grinding marks, it was as near perfect as one needs.

More recently, I've gone back to using the fine India, paired with a Dragon's Tongue Slate. The India cuts faster than the medium ceramic, and (whilst this is a subjective judgement) the Dragon's Tongue gives a slightly sharper edge than the ultra-fine ceramic. I'm not sure why this is, since the 'numbers' suggest they should be about the same, but the nonetheless the sharpest edges I've ever produced have been from the Dragon's Tongue. That, however, is on the simpler steels; I don't have any of the modern everlasting wonder-steels.

So, in summary; The ceramic stones are very compact to store and easy to use, but do benefit from use with something to float off the swarf. They are expensive in first cost (the ultra-fine cost be just shy of £100 - the Dragon's Tongue was less than £15 delivered for two). The medium is not absolutely flat (it's 'flat enough'), and is slower cutting than a fine India oilstone, though gives a slightly more refined edge. The ultra-fine is flat enough to satisfy all but the most pernickety, and gives a pretty good edge, but not quite as good as a Welsh slate. Both oil and ceramic stones are easy to use at the bench.

Would I recommend ceramic stones? On balance, if you're prepared to swallow the first cost (which in the UK at least is quite high), they should give a lifetime's good service, and do a very acceptable job. They are not perfect (no system is), but they are a very viable option.

This is most emphatically NOT an attempt to have a go at anybody, or fan any flame-wars. It's just my experience and honest opinion, posted with the intention of adding a little to the sum of human knowledge, and in the hope that it may inform others a bit. If anybody wants to pick a fight with me over it - shove off, I'm not interested.
 
CStanford":1xkp509b said:
I don't think I got a 'bum' one. I just used it a lot. If somebody finds a honing stone that when used dry doesn't build up a glaze and therefore progressively ceases to cut then do let me know. Ceramics are certainly not it. You'll spend a lot of time at the sink if you spend a lot of time in the shop.
I think they're good stones, they just need to be used with a fluid, at least the benchstones used for plane irons and chisels do.
I give them a squirt of soapy water first which keeps them going a lot longer before cleaning. I use the small slip stones for touching up turning chisels and have found that if the build up is too much you can leave overnight in vinegar instead of the usual scrubbing.
Like Derek I've found the CBN wheels a revelation.
 
I think yours is excellent advice. These stones load when used dry and their effectiveness diminishes at each honing session because of it. It's metaphysically impossible for anything else to occur as long as metal finings keep building on the stone as it is used dry.
 
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