The neverending Table Saw decision
- Thread starter Emstuv
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heimlaga
Established Member
As you live in Norway most likely with three phaee power accessible and as you want accuracy there is really no reason to nut buy a proper cabinet saw with cast iron top. You can get a good one secondhand for less than the aforementioned lightweight saws and it will last until your grandchildrean are all dead.
In my experience 2,2 kW three phase is the minimum size motor for ripping 2 inch thick wood efficiently. Three phase motors have a lot more torque under load and they strain all three phases of the electrical system evenly so they are superrior in all respects. Easier to rewind too if they burn out.
I have tried to rewind the burned out armature of a single phase motor and it is one hell of a job. Possible but far from easy.
Ejca and Rapid and Wadkin-Bursgreen are three high quality brands of cabinet saws that you may come across secondhandin Norway or just across the border in Sweden. Jonsered and Bäuerle and Waco amongst others also made some rather similar sized saws back in the old days but they are a bit more oldfashioned.
Ejca and Rapid are still maufactured so you can get spare parts for them.
In my experience 2,2 kW three phase is the minimum size motor for ripping 2 inch thick wood efficiently. Three phase motors have a lot more torque under load and they strain all three phases of the electrical system evenly so they are superrior in all respects. Easier to rewind too if they burn out.
I have tried to rewind the burned out armature of a single phase motor and it is one hell of a job. Possible but far from easy.
Ejca and Rapid and Wadkin-Bursgreen are three high quality brands of cabinet saws that you may come across secondhandin Norway or just across the border in Sweden. Jonsered and Bäuerle and Waco amongst others also made some rather similar sized saws back in the old days but they are a bit more oldfashioned.
Ejca and Rapid are still maufactured so you can get spare parts for them.
sickasapike
Established Member
With noise being a concern for me, I did some measuring of sound levels with a phone app, not exactly a lab-accurate study and with no moving average type display in the free app it was a bit hit and miss deciding what level to record, but interesting nonetheless.Emstuv":20sbvha2 said:
My old Titan budget one measured 79db at 2m away (26db ambient), the brushless Sheppach HS120 that I ended up returning was 75db in the same conditions (33db ambient - different days).
This is all with saw running, but no wood being cut, and no vac running.
The 95db figure puts my figures in some doubt, surely my 150 quid Titan saw can't be quieter than a DeWalt site saw... I guess I can only trust my home-brewed figures when compared with each other, not with manufacturers stats.
I'll do the same with my TS82 today and post the result, but it's noticeably quieter than both, I didn't need the app to tell me that !
I also took levels inside my lounge with the window open, across about 20m of garden with the workshop door and windows shut, to see how annoying I was being to neighbours.
The Titan came out at 52db and the Sheppach was barely audible over ambient sound, I didn't record the ambient numbers for this... finally I had a table saw I could run on Sunday afternoons without feeling guilty
My amateur non-acoustic engineer reckoning is that with the Titan being more of a high pitched scream, and the Sheppach being more of a thrumming, more of the lower frequencies were absorbed by the workshop walls and soundproofing / didn't travel as well as the higher frequencies through air; so while the Sheppach was quieter than the Titan close up, it was more quieter at range if you see what I mean.
sickasapike
Established Member
FYI, here is a footprint diagram the distributor sent me when I was trying to work out if it fit in my workshop, and a photo of what arrives they also sent, from when I was wondering how I was going to get the thing from roadside to workshop.
Please note, the short cable on top shouldn't actually be included, it's the cable for the HS120 which is nice and beefy but stupidly short, under a metre, so you have to add an extension anyway unless you have a socket right next to it.
They did send this cable too for some reason, so I have a spare power cable for an HS120 I don't own if anyone needs one.
The cable on the TS82 is fixed to the machine (not plugged in) and is amore sensible 2m or so long (I can measure if you like).
Please note, the short cable on top shouldn't actually be included, it's the cable for the HS120 which is nice and beefy but stupidly short, under a metre, so you have to add an extension anyway unless you have a socket right next to it.
They did send this cable too for some reason, so I have a spare power cable for an HS120 I don't own if anyone needs one.
The cable on the TS82 is fixed to the machine (not plugged in) and is amore sensible 2m or so long (I can measure if you like).
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Bodgers
Established Member
heimlaga":o4hbhjw3 said:
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sickasapike
Established Member
I definitely found that, when I upgraded to a pair of cross/rip Freud blades the noise from the blade itself changed in character to more of a whooshing than a hissing if you see what I mean, definitely quieter, the figures above were with the supplied blades.MikeJhn":2nohmez7 said:
sickasapike
Established Member
I emailed them and got a copy of the fitting instructions, needs 3 holes drilled sideways into the front of the table top, tempted to get one; if anyone wants to see I can email to you, it won't let me upload a PDF here.MikeJhn":3jn1yyj1 said:
Lonsdale73
Established Member
transatlantic":2ikuhsmp said:
I went to the Newark Woodworking show earlier in the year specifically to look at the Charnwood W619 but they didn't have one on display. They did have the 10" model which I suspect is essentially the same gubbins albeit with the bigger blade and a larger motor.
Now, while I like the idea of such a saw, fact is I've scarcely anywhere to put it. The one I had (an entry level Charnwood) saw less and less use after getting a tracksaw and decent mite saw so I sold it to free up space for a bandsaw. Having done that, I was soon amazed at how missed it was. Therefore, I've been looking at the more compact models, the DW745 seeming to be one that many non-site workers chose for their workshops. Depending on where you buy, both can be had for about the same price so is there much difference in performance between these models? Would a Charnwood / Scheppach produce better/straighter/more accurate cuts than the Dewalt and it's lauded rack and pinion fence?
Bodgers
Established Member
Don't forget the Axy TS200/250 as well - they actually have the better fence/rail setup on the MK2 of all these clones. TS250 also has microadjustment. I would take a serious look at the TS200 MK2, because its foot print is probably the smallest of the lot as the basic setup.Lonsdale73":g4sh6i86 said:
About them Vs site saws (e.g. Dewalt): I'm not sure how they would compare in some sort of side by side test, but I would say that the tops on the site saws are often not as good which is a factor in a workshop setup. The cast alloy top on the Dewalt for example will not be as flat or the slots milled as precisely as the cast iron ones (see Matthais Wandell's review of the Dewalt site table saw for example). When using jigs that's a factor. Compromises have to be made for it to work as a portable, site tool.
I think the other differences speak for themselves - noise, the fact the extra mass of the cast iron top gives more stability etc. In the end you have to choose for yourself, so if the Dewalt fence is the selling point for you, go for it...
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Lonsdale73
Established Member
Bodgers":20802w5o said:
Excuse my ignorance here: I notice the axy is an 1100w motor compared to the 2000w of th DW745; does being an induction motor mean less wattage is required to obtain a comparable performance?
Just to clarify, the TS200/250 standard fence is supported at one end only, however if you buy the extension table you also get the longer fence and rails that give support on the far side of the table, this is a major upgrade to these saws IMO, the DeWalt rack and pinion system is as you say lauded in all the reviews and is a much smaller footprint, only you will know how often you will need the extra width of an extension table.
Mike
Mike
As far as I understand these things, Its more about torque than Watts, a brushed motor will produce it maximum torque at start up and loose torque as the speed increase's, an induction motor does not produce its maximum torque until it reaches maximum speed so is more efficient.
Mike
Mike
Bodgers
Established Member
Lonsdale73":1jpsa84q said:
sickasapike
Established Member
That's my understanding, my old Titan is a 1500w, my TS82 is 1100w induction but it seems, subjectively, like an order of magnitude more powerful, and similar difference in the noise too, in the good direction I mean.Lonsdale73":1hqjsly3 said:
I wish it were possible to buy one of the shop/non-site saws but opt to not get the stand, slide assembly etc. - just the table top and motor for a lower price, so you can build into a custom table without having to store a load of steel and aluminum until it gets sold on, one day in the far future !
sickasapike
The Axminster TS200 and TS250 come as a basic saw, without stand, extensions or side slide table, if you want those you have to select them as either a complete kit or buy them as after market accessories. In fact that is what I did.
Mike
The Axminster TS200 and TS250 come as a basic saw, without stand, extensions or side slide table, if you want those you have to select them as either a complete kit or buy them as after market accessories. In fact that is what I did.
Mike
you need to be careful how you use the word 'powerful' when referring to motors. Regardless of brushed or brushless.
Power is volts x amps whatever the motor type. Its the amount of electrical power provided to the motor.
The efficiency of the motor determines what % of that electrical power is converted into mechanical power at the saw blade.
Electrical motors tend to be pretty good efficiency wise (you will see figures of 90% or more) induction motors tend to be slightly more efficient than brushed and as a consequence are quieter - less energy is lost in the form of noise than a brushed motor.
However the efficiency increase is not that big a difference between induction and brushed. The biggest difference is the toque profile. An induction motor provides greater torque at its maximum speed whereas a brushed motor has max torque at its start up condition. This is what gives an induction motor a 'soft start' feel as it spins up. It also means that to produce the torque required at its operating speed you can use a smaller (measured by electrical power consumption) motor than if you used a brushed motor.
Measuring an electrical motor by its power consumption is a bit like the old way that we measured incandescent light bulbs. We quoted their wattage - which is the electrical consumption, and had nothing at all to do with the light output. But its a convenient shorthand that the marketing people can splash across the product packaging.
Power is volts x amps whatever the motor type. Its the amount of electrical power provided to the motor.
The efficiency of the motor determines what % of that electrical power is converted into mechanical power at the saw blade.
Electrical motors tend to be pretty good efficiency wise (you will see figures of 90% or more) induction motors tend to be slightly more efficient than brushed and as a consequence are quieter - less energy is lost in the form of noise than a brushed motor.
However the efficiency increase is not that big a difference between induction and brushed. The biggest difference is the toque profile. An induction motor provides greater torque at its maximum speed whereas a brushed motor has max torque at its start up condition. This is what gives an induction motor a 'soft start' feel as it spins up. It also means that to produce the torque required at its operating speed you can use a smaller (measured by electrical power consumption) motor than if you used a brushed motor.
Measuring an electrical motor by its power consumption is a bit like the old way that we measured incandescent light bulbs. We quoted their wattage - which is the electrical consumption, and had nothing at all to do with the light output. But its a convenient shorthand that the marketing people can splash across the product packaging.
