Steve Maskery
Established Member
hat is a good poit, Dennis, many sliding tables will preclude the option of moving the fence to the left.
S
S
The importance of practising what one preaches
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Bradshaw Joinery
Established Member
If its caughtt he guard on the bevel, it would drag the guard down at an angle (which it cqnt do) and something will give. This case it looks like the teeth snapped off where it caught, gripped and snapped the guard and the resulting force broke the supports on the guard.
Dare i say this accident was caused by the guard, and may not have happened with a diferent setting? Ive seen lots of violent incidents from bevelled or wedged cuts on circular saws, i now avoid it and use a bandsaw or a tracksaw where possible
Dare i say this accident was caused by the guard, and may not have happened with a diferent setting? Ive seen lots of violent incidents from bevelled or wedged cuts on circular saws, i now avoid it and use a bandsaw or a tracksaw where possible
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I think the only saw I have ever used with a LH tilt was an old Startrite. It was a useful feature on occasions. Bevel cutting has a higher accident risk than straight cutting for the two reasons stated before.
1. Timber getting trapped below the blade and jammed against the fence or rising up and getting Kick back.
2. Mitred off cuts dropping or catching the back of the blade and being thrown towards the user.
Another problem that can arise if bevelling both long edges on a board, is when doing the second bevel cut the first one can creep under the rip fence and get trapped.
Cheers Peter
1. Timber getting trapped below the blade and jammed against the fence or rising up and getting Kick back.
2. Mitred off cuts dropping or catching the back of the blade and being thrown towards the user.
Another problem that can arise if bevelling both long edges on a board, is when doing the second bevel cut the first one can creep under the rip fence and get trapped.
Cheers Peter
Jacob
Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
Glad it wasn't worse Steve!
I couldn't work out what your set up was from the photos. There seems to be so much clutter - some of it looking very flimsily attached, particularly that plastic guard thing on long spindly rods with home made brackets.
But what was very obvious was the absence of a crown guard fixed to the riving knife.
These do at least three things;
1 prevent you from touching the blade from above.
2 protect you from stuff flying up from the blade - sawdust itself but also knots/workpieces/off-cuts if they get swept up.
3 stop objects from accidentally meeting the blade from above.
This last could be the cause - that flimsy plastic thing whatever it is - did it drop or vibrate into the blade somehow?
PS and in your first photo - your left hand seems to be close up to the end of the push stick. It should also have a push stick in it! Protecting one hand is better than non I suppose.
PS just had a re-read - that is what happened isn't it - that loosely attached plastic guard dropped on to the blade? A crown guard would have prevented this.
Also the plastic looks like 1/2" perspex. Tough enough to rip off the saw teeth and at the same time snap it down and crush your finger. Be better if it was thinner. It's useless anyway and it looks like it was the cause of your accident
I couldn't work out what your set up was from the photos. There seems to be so much clutter - some of it looking very flimsily attached, particularly that plastic guard thing on long spindly rods with home made brackets.
But what was very obvious was the absence of a crown guard fixed to the riving knife.
These do at least three things;
1 prevent you from touching the blade from above.
2 protect you from stuff flying up from the blade - sawdust itself but also knots/workpieces/off-cuts if they get swept up.
3 stop objects from accidentally meeting the blade from above.
This last could be the cause - that flimsy plastic thing whatever it is - did it drop or vibrate into the blade somehow?
PS and in your first photo - your left hand seems to be close up to the end of the push stick. It should also have a push stick in it! Protecting one hand is better than non I suppose.
I agree - but what I have said many times is that if things are going wrong and you are losing control in any way then you should back off, step back, and not be tempted to grab or hold down the workpiece nearer the blade. Not quite the same thing and doesn't apply in this case.
PS just had a re-read - that is what happened isn't it - that loosely attached plastic guard dropped on to the blade? A crown guard would have prevented this.
Also the plastic looks like 1/2" perspex. Tough enough to rip off the saw teeth and at the same time snap it down and crush your finger. Be better if it was thinner. It's useless anyway and it looks like it was the cause of your accident
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
I'm pretty sure that Steve knows that Perspex is the wrong stuff for guards, so I doubt it is that material. I must say though, when ever 'custom' guarding set ups are used, you have to be darn sure that they are not in themselves a safety issue. If anyone is unsure about replacing guards with shop made ones, better they leave the standard ones in place and use an alternative machine to do the task. I very seldom rip timber on a tablesaw any more, finding a bandsaw often better and less frought. I know many people have limited space in their home workshops, myself included, so I can see the attraction of enabling the tablesaw to do multiple tasks. I spent a lot of time in the US too, and there the tablesaw is almost treated like a universal machine, with some horrible safety issues! I would always make space for another machine, if that machine was better suited to the task, or just use hand tools. Let's face it, many of use just need a tiny excuse to get more kit anyway, so a safety matter is probably the best of all.
Bevelling on a bandsaw and finishing with a long hand plane would be my preferred method of doing this job, though I have crammed a small spindle moulded in my tiny shop and actually find bevelling on that to be safer and more convenient than doing it on a tablesaw. That might seem bizarre to some, but modern spindles are so benign now and well guarded, that they do feel calmer and safer to do that task than the TS.
Hope Steve's hand heals soon. Get back on the horse soon though, don't let this incident worry you into inactivity.
Mike.
I'm pretty sure that Steve knows that Perspex is the wrong stuff for guards, so I doubt it is that material. I must say though, when ever 'custom' guarding set ups are used, you have to be darn sure that they are not in themselves a safety issue. If anyone is unsure about replacing guards with shop made ones, better they leave the standard ones in place and use an alternative machine to do the task. I very seldom rip timber on a tablesaw any more, finding a bandsaw often better and less frought. I know many people have limited space in their home workshops, myself included, so I can see the attraction of enabling the tablesaw to do multiple tasks. I spent a lot of time in the US too, and there the tablesaw is almost treated like a universal machine, with some horrible safety issues! I would always make space for another machine, if that machine was better suited to the task, or just use hand tools. Let's face it, many of use just need a tiny excuse to get more kit anyway, so a safety matter is probably the best of all.
Bevelling on a bandsaw and finishing with a long hand plane would be my preferred method of doing this job, though I have crammed a small spindle moulded in my tiny shop and actually find bevelling on that to be safer and more convenient than doing it on a tablesaw. That might seem bizarre to some, but modern spindles are so benign now and well guarded, that they do feel calmer and safer to do that task than the TS.
Hope Steve's hand heals soon. Get back on the horse soon though, don't let this incident worry you into inactivity.
Mike.
Graham Orm
Established Member
Hope you're feeling better today Steve. Horrible experience especially when you thought you were taking care.
Jacob
Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
Looks to me (and behaved) like perspex. The material wasn't the main issue (though thinner/weaker would be better) - it was the flimsy attachment.woodbrains":1nymko33 said:
mseries
Established Member
There is so much valuable information in this thread. Sorry to learn of your accident though Steve.
rafezetter
Troll Hunter
I'm really glad this wasn't more serious Steve, it's definitely cemented whether to have a safety guard system on my homemade table saw and that story about losing a finger to mitre cut wood is something I would NEVER have thought could happen - a nasty cut maybe but removal? WoW. Needle in the finger.. yeah, you're more man that I am 
I've also been guilty of leaving cut waste on the outfeed, never again. EVER...
Many thanks Steve for sharing this extremely sobering reminder that even the best of us can have this happen.
I've also been guilty of leaving cut waste on the outfeed, never again. EVER...
Many thanks Steve for sharing this extremely sobering reminder that even the best of us can have this happen.
Jacob
Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
I had to look up "Suva" guard I wasn't sure what they are. What does SUVA stand for?
They look like a really bad idea to me.
1 they are mounted remotely and hence will be wobbly, with the potential of hitting the blade (as happened here with Steve's).
2 If they do touch the blade the flimsy linkage means they can be pushed or pulled out of alignment with the risk of getting snatched up (ditto Steve's)
3 They don't move with the blade so will often be out of alignment, with risk as above
4 They can be mounted well above the blade, leaving it exposed.
5 They are wide and bulky making things more difficult with push sticks etc.
Non of these apply to a crown guard, which is obviously a lot safer and more convenient in every way.
They look like a really bad idea to me.
1 they are mounted remotely and hence will be wobbly, with the potential of hitting the blade (as happened here with Steve's).
2 If they do touch the blade the flimsy linkage means they can be pushed or pulled out of alignment with the risk of getting snatched up (ditto Steve's)
3 They don't move with the blade so will often be out of alignment, with risk as above
4 They can be mounted well above the blade, leaving it exposed.
5 They are wide and bulky making things more difficult with push sticks etc.
Non of these apply to a crown guard, which is obviously a lot safer and more convenient in every way.
pip1954
Established Member
Hi Steve
looks like you had a very near miss , it happens so quick the blink of an eye it is all over seconds to do ages to repair.
hope you mend quickly
all the best
phil
looks like you had a very near miss , it happens so quick the blink of an eye it is all over seconds to do ages to repair.
hope you mend quickly
all the best
phil
How has the blade lost 4 teeth?
Is it a Freud blade, looks like it?
Can you tell if the braze has failed at the joint and could this have been the cause? It's just thought but they must be going at quite a bit when they've let go.
Is there anyone who could work out the speed and force of tct tooth flying off a blade?
Is it a Freud blade, looks like it?
Can you tell if the braze has failed at the joint and could this have been the cause? It's just thought but they must be going at quite a bit when they've let go.
Is there anyone who could work out the speed and force of tct tooth flying off a blade?
Jacob
Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
A mate of mine got a TS tct tip in the eye. It went right in and had to be removed with an operation. Luckily it had missed lens etc and just punctured the white.n0legs":4wbxe5o2 said:
He had all safety stuff in place but somehow it had broken off and ricoched off the table.
Perhaps he wasn't wearing goggles. It's a long time ago I can't remember.
Jacob
Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
Had a quick google: there are lots of suva guards around.
http://scosarg.com/suva-s315-circular-s ... 27175.html
Very expensive and very dangerous IMHO. The illusion of protection is worse than no protection at all.
Steve is case in point - without the guard he would have been a lot more careful and wouldn't have hurt his finger or been at risk of losing an eye from flying TCT tips.
The worst form of gadgetry.
http://scosarg.com/suva-s315-circular-s ... 27175.html
Very expensive and very dangerous IMHO. The illusion of protection is worse than no protection at all.
Steve is case in point - without the guard he would have been a lot more careful and wouldn't have hurt his finger or been at risk of losing an eye from flying TCT tips.
The worst form of gadgetry.
doctor Bob
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I have an overhead guard on my saw (altendorf) it's rock solid as it's on 3" steel mounting. I don't like the idea of flimsey ones.
Your fence is too long as well, I don't understand why people use long fences, middle of the blade and no further, no pro shop I know of uses a long fence.
Was the blade sharp? a blunt blade is very dangerous on bevelled cuts.
Strange you think the fence should be on the left, I've only ever seen fences on the right on commercial saws.
Your fence is too long as well, I don't understand why people use long fences, middle of the blade and no further, no pro shop I know of uses a long fence.
Was the blade sharp? a blunt blade is very dangerous on bevelled cuts.
Strange you think the fence should be on the left, I've only ever seen fences on the right on commercial saws.
Steve Maskery
Established Member
Thank you for all the comments, guys. As usual, some sound sense and some nonsense.
The guard is made from, IIRC, PE. I can't remember if it is HDPE or LDPE, but most definitely not acrylic. It would not have survived if it was, it would have been in a million pieces. Mine covers the blade much better than the crown guard that came with it, which was small, impossible - and I do mean impossible - to adjust properly and could actually fall onto the blade. This one can't. It covers the blade at both sides completely, as well as above and is taller than the blade, so it hits the table before it can touch the blade. It's not flimsy at all, but the support arms were not designed to withstand sideways forces and that most definitely is a weakness that needs addressing.
I went down to have a look this morning and I now know what happened. It was as I suspected, the guard making contact with the blade. That is my fault, it was set in the wrong place relative to the saw slot. It's because I recently modified it to remove an annoying glitch. It doesn't matter when doing normal cutting, but when tilted, the blade is too close to the cover. I must have pushed the cover in slightly with my pushstick. The back rising teeth picked up the back of the cover so that the front was brought into contact with the teeth. The fact that it survived in one piece, albeit damaged, is testament to its robustness, I think. The swing arms are deliberate. They allow the cover to rise above the work as, and only as, the workpiece travels over the blade. It drops down at the front as soon as the wood goes past. It means that there is always something between me and the teeth. Always. It works superbly under normal circumstances.
I think the only flaw was the positioning of it. I might make the swing arms out of steel rather than wood and I need to beef up the fixing points of the fence shoe support, but otherwise I shall rebuild it just as it was. Except for its lateral positioning, of course.
I'm really rather pleased that I now understand what was wrong, although I still don't know which bit of it hit me, the guard or the pushstick.
BTW, Bob, I was using a short fence and the blade was sharp (at least, I hadn't had any other indications to the contrary - although it isn't any more...). And my point about putting the fence on the left is for bevel cuts on right-tilt saws - only for that - so that neither the workpiece nor the off-rip get trapped between the underside of the blade and the fence.
So I shall put it all right tomorrow. I do have a spare blade (yes, it is a Freud), so I can carry on, but all my other blades, half a dozen or so, have gone, including a rather nice DW crosscut blade and a FTG one that was perfect for splining mitres. So I shall have to either buy a replacement (not available in the UK AFAIAA) or see if the saw doctor can bring it back to life. It's not seen a great deal of use and I do like it. Unfortunately, the saw doctor is a much greater distance away than he used to be, and I went only last week.
Two other points:
1. SUVA means something in Swiss:
http://www.suva.ch/english/
It's the initials of an insurance company. The style of guard is one they are happy to insure against, so they, at least think the design is not fatally flawed.
2. My finger is fine today, thank you. The nail is a bit tender if I press it, but it's not needed a dressing, let alone troubling the busy people at A&E. It's just a bit bruised and scraped. Actually one of the other abrasions has given me more trouble today than the nail. It's just on the inside of my finger, so I catch it every time I pick something up.
I've learned something from this, and if it has helped anyone else then, well, I won't say that it has been worth it, but every cloud, eh?
Jacob, you can buy me a commiseration pint on Thursday.
PS Why are saw doctors called saw doctors? They deal with teeth, they should surely be saw dentists ???
The guard is made from, IIRC, PE. I can't remember if it is HDPE or LDPE, but most definitely not acrylic. It would not have survived if it was, it would have been in a million pieces. Mine covers the blade much better than the crown guard that came with it, which was small, impossible - and I do mean impossible - to adjust properly and could actually fall onto the blade. This one can't. It covers the blade at both sides completely, as well as above and is taller than the blade, so it hits the table before it can touch the blade. It's not flimsy at all, but the support arms were not designed to withstand sideways forces and that most definitely is a weakness that needs addressing.
I went down to have a look this morning and I now know what happened. It was as I suspected, the guard making contact with the blade. That is my fault, it was set in the wrong place relative to the saw slot. It's because I recently modified it to remove an annoying glitch. It doesn't matter when doing normal cutting, but when tilted, the blade is too close to the cover. I must have pushed the cover in slightly with my pushstick. The back rising teeth picked up the back of the cover so that the front was brought into contact with the teeth. The fact that it survived in one piece, albeit damaged, is testament to its robustness, I think. The swing arms are deliberate. They allow the cover to rise above the work as, and only as, the workpiece travels over the blade. It drops down at the front as soon as the wood goes past. It means that there is always something between me and the teeth. Always. It works superbly under normal circumstances.
I think the only flaw was the positioning of it. I might make the swing arms out of steel rather than wood and I need to beef up the fixing points of the fence shoe support, but otherwise I shall rebuild it just as it was. Except for its lateral positioning, of course.
I'm really rather pleased that I now understand what was wrong, although I still don't know which bit of it hit me, the guard or the pushstick.
BTW, Bob, I was using a short fence and the blade was sharp (at least, I hadn't had any other indications to the contrary - although it isn't any more...). And my point about putting the fence on the left is for bevel cuts on right-tilt saws - only for that - so that neither the workpiece nor the off-rip get trapped between the underside of the blade and the fence.
So I shall put it all right tomorrow. I do have a spare blade (yes, it is a Freud), so I can carry on, but all my other blades, half a dozen or so, have gone, including a rather nice DW crosscut blade and a FTG one that was perfect for splining mitres. So I shall have to either buy a replacement (not available in the UK AFAIAA) or see if the saw doctor can bring it back to life. It's not seen a great deal of use and I do like it. Unfortunately, the saw doctor is a much greater distance away than he used to be, and I went only last week.
Two other points:
1. SUVA means something in Swiss:
http://www.suva.ch/english/
It's the initials of an insurance company. The style of guard is one they are happy to insure against, so they, at least think the design is not fatally flawed.
2. My finger is fine today, thank you. The nail is a bit tender if I press it, but it's not needed a dressing, let alone troubling the busy people at A&E. It's just a bit bruised and scraped. Actually one of the other abrasions has given me more trouble today than the nail. It's just on the inside of my finger, so I catch it every time I pick something up.
I've learned something from this, and if it has helped anyone else then, well, I won't say that it has been worth it, but every cloud, eh?
Jacob, you can buy me a commiseration pint on Thursday.
PS Why are saw doctors called saw doctors? They deal with teeth, they should surely be saw dentists ???
Random Orbital Bob
Established Member
Just one point of clarification please. It's been mentioned that off cuts left on the table can cross the table and get flung at the user causing undesired amputations. By that I presume we mean that the off cuts are "dancing" across the table caused by the vibrations of it in use?
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