The employment question

[Paul Chapman]

Mentoring is a very subtle skill and not many people can do it. The best mentor I ever had (before I even knew what mentoring was) was a boss of mine in 1971. I had recently got married, bought a house, the wife was expecting and we were skint :shock: The next promotion was very important to me and he knew it. We both used to get to work very early, so every morning I would pop in for a 15 minute chat with my boss. What he managed to do was to give me the confidence to think things through and work them out for myself. I don't think he ever gave me the answer to anything but he taught me how to arrive at the answer. I still don't know how he did it, but he was bloody good at it

I passed the next promotion board with flying colours and it was all down to him.....

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[tim]

There's another important factor in answering your question:

Whether the switch is to an employed or self employed role. I would imagine that a lot of people who switch direction later in life would look to being self employed rather than taken on as a junior. Unless this was part of their plan to get a bit of paid training before setting up alone.

My reasons for switching were simple - bored of corporate clap trap and dancing to others tunes, plus a hankering to combine creative and physical work while running my own business. Clearly you still end up dancing to the customer's tune but its ultimately your decision. My plan though was to run a business first and that it happened to be in woodworking - I do see quite a few people trying to nail a business plan to a woodworking dream and that seems to me to be a recipe for disaster both emotionally and financially. Exactly what johnnyb was saying really.

Money is clearly a factor but I don't agree that you will necessarily take a much lower wage (unless you are employed). I find that when I am paid, I am paid well but in the initial business stages those payments may be a bit spread out which clearly gives a low annualised figure. Once your name and work gets known and your book fills up then its a decent enough wage.

Cheers

Tim

 

[engineer one]

one thing that is always of interest to me is that in america there is a very famous and successful mentoring programme for young people.

it is called the "big brother" programme, where it generally works is within the black community, but also has worked in other deprived areas.
for some reason it has never properly translated over here.

mentoring, is as, paul chapman has said, giving people the confidence to do things without actually telling them what to do.

i think the idea of letting someone work with an improver for say the first 3-6 months when they are basically on "approval" is the right way to go.
given much recent legislation, it is probably legally required to have someone appraising the new worker, and so it would be easier to make that person a mentor too.

i think if a mentor and a trainee work together, the pressures make it more difficult for the mentor to be effective whilst as a separate "outside" person, they can take a more distant and situation defusing view.

good thread though. bit sad about french polishing, but i would guess that it has always been a bit of a treadmill in the production workshop.

paul :wink:

 

[tim]

Paul

A major sticking point with the mentoring problem in woodworking is the cost to the employer. I thought about doing it last year but the hoops in terms of assessments and then the ridiculous hike in insurance made it a non starter. It may well be okay if you are already set up to employ but otherwise its damn tricky or expensive or both.

Cheers

Tim

 

[engineer one]

tim, sadly you are right, the thing is almost all recent government and eu legislation makes it very difficult for a small manual based business to expand very much without having to enjoy a massive jump in both expenses and manpower.

i am not saying it is possible, only that it is the only way i can see it working in the circumstances that scrit mentioned.

one of the things i do is provide certain ad hoc management services for small companies. almost daily now i find my level of knowledge gets less and less because of the speed of the introduction of new laws.

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

It is the same mindset I work in as a hobby woodworker. Unfortunately wood finishing is more a science than an art and speed is vital. Spray guns rule supreme. even shellac antique finishes are sprayed and only hand finished.

The difficulty is finding somebody that understands these issues and will not be disilusioned because he is taking part in an industrial process not a work of art.

In some ways, Johnny, you've answered your own question. I'm trying to ascertain what type of individuals would want to make the switch, why and what they expect. I agree that there is a major difference between the hobbyist mindset and that of a production woodworker, having been both myself, but there is a small group of businesses which exist in a middle ground between the two, where machine technology is used for the donkey work but where many of the traditional hand skills are required. Some of the professional woodworkers on this forum sit in the middle ground, and not all of them are only into making fancy kitchens

The instance I'm considering here is where someone wishes to make the switch and be employed, after all not everyone is cut-out for self-employment. From the perspective of any business you ideally don't want to spend time and effort (and money) training people who'll up and leave when they've learned enough. That is not productive, either, so it becomes important to recognise who will be happy in an employee role

Scrit

 

[DomValente]

Scrit wrote:

so it becomes important to recognise who will be happy in an employee role

I think the only way you will find that out is to employ them, you'll soon recognise the signs.

Dom

 

[engineer one]

more worryingly is the comment in sunday's papers about the failure rate at school of boys, with one in 3 14 year old not hitting any of the marks.

the saddest thing is that school does not entice them. so you then worry whether they will ever be able to work under supervision :?

i think that many older people would actually buckle down once they saw the possibilities because it really depends upon their abilities too. often all they need is the confidence.

paul :wink:

 

[johnnyb]

many many people (myself included) are far to lazy to run a business. i dont mean lazy in a cant get out of bed way but more not interested(enough) in the ins and outs of running a business. i know i could not successfully run a small business. shame as i would really like to. this is not to imply i have no use but being employed means i can focus my energy on what does interest me. i also like to very carefully pick my employee because many will offer wildly differing rates for essentially the same job. if you have three or four skilled people doing the same as you (for much less)your value can be heavily diminished. working for insurance companies means we can charge what we want as long as its below the value of the item.

 

[Anonymous]

I have just taken on an employee, insurance has doubled and £1500 on safety upgrades.
We were doing alright without employee's but neither of us wants to be on the tools anymore, and the only way to get out is to bring in the employees, so that hopefully in 5 years time we will be office based.
Its strange reading all the posts about wanting to move into the trade, I really have had enough of the tools, I would love to just manage, drive a car rather than a filthy van, wear new cloths to work, have clean hands, keep whats left of my hearing, cracked hands in winter, splinters, black nails etc.

 

[Anonymous]

Pro woodworking is nothing like hobby work in the garage as must be clear from the posts the professional woodworkers make on here.

I think the biggest mistake a person can make is to think that their hobby would make a great career.

Keep a hobby a hobby and you might always enjoy it.

I love my job and love my hobby, both are very different and satisfy different aspects of my needs and wants.

 

[Dave S]

Interesting thread.

I started my first career in my early thirties and changed careers in my early forties. I've therefore had mentors and superiors who were considerably younger then me.

I think there is a danger of a younger mentor feeling threatened by an older junior who, due to their life and previous employment experience, may have (and express) ideas and opinions about the business itself. If the older career changer is ambitious this could be a problem.

Whether this could apply to the situation you have in mind I don't know, but I have both seen it and to some extent experienced it in my own fields (not wood related).

Dave

 

[Scrit]

.....I would love to just manage, drive a car rather than a filthy van, wear new cloths to work, have clean hands, keep whats left of my hearing, cracked hands in winter, splinters, black nails, etc.

Oh, go on! You love it, really :wink:

I think there is a danger of a younger mentor feeling threatened by an older junior who, due to their life and previous employment experience, may have (and express) ideas and opinions about the business itself. If the older career changer is ambitious this could be a problem.

This is one of the areas I'm interested in. In a country with an ageing population and where people sometimes have to change careers twice or three times in a lifetime I feel this is going to become more of an issue. Things aren't helped by the insistence in recent years of cutting funding to FE night schools in favour of funding the under 25s and the onwards push towards degrees rather than trade qualifications (not sure if the guy unblocking my toilet at 3am need to have a plumbing degree, y'know). How did you and your mentors actuallt cope with this situation? Was there a need for a mentor to the mentors, for example?

What I'm trying to arrive at here is something approaching an ethical employment and career development philosophy. Yes, the young need to be given a chance - but equally there are many older peope who are no less deserving of an opportunity. And not all of us want to work in businesses which employ cheap, short-term foreign labour, either

Scrit

 

[Paul Chapman]

How did you and your mentors actuallt cope with this situation? Was there a need for a mentor to the mentors, for example?

When I was at work, Scrit, there was quite a lot of mentoring. I was in the public sector and as mentoring was perceived by HMG as a "good thing", everyone was doing it (in the public sector you get brownie points for doing those things which are perceived as good or flavour of the month :roll: ). However, I found a lot of it was a waste of time. Mentoring is a very specialised activity and it requires particular skills - it's quite different from day-to-day training. It comes down to having the right people who know how to do it. There's no reason why you couldn't have one person who really knew what they were doing mentoring several different people.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[mr]

Mentoring is a very specialised activity and it requires particular skills - it's quite different from day-to-day training. Paul

Quite so, I think mentoring implies something of an abstract concept. Training can be delivered by some one with prior experience of process whereas mentoring requires that the Mentor is able to combine the prior experience with a "wisdom" for want of a better word. Mentoring implies counsel not just demonstration. The term comes to us from the Iliad, Odysseus departs for the Trojan war leaving number one son Telemachus in the care of his trusted friend Mentor (Mentes), which would suggest that mentoring implies a kind of pastoral care as well.

Cheers Mike

 

[Paul Chapman]

Mentoring is a very specialised activity and it requires particular skills - it's quite different from day-to-day training. Paul

Quite so, I think mentoring implies something of an abstract concept. Training can be delivered by some one with prior experience of process whereas mentoring requires that the Mentor is able to combine the prior experience with a "wisdom" for want of a better word. Mentoring implies counsel not just demonstration.

I think that puts it quite well, Mike. In the scenario Scrit is painting, it's about standing back and seeing the bigger picture in the ever-changing employment situation and how to blend it all together so that it works.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[greybeard]

Agreed whole-heartedly with Paul and Mike - timely too, cos I'd begun to lose track of what was really underlying Scrit's original question!

If I was to be taken on in such a role as Scrit is envisaging I would expect my superior (experience/technique/skill.......whatever his/her "superior" capability) to both teach me and oversee my work. That's to deal with the "hows".
My "teacher" could perhaps be several people in the course of a day or a job, depending on the particular blend of skills/abilities required.
But I would expect my mentor to be one person, someone with whom I could discuss the "whys", and consider alternative solutions, as well as arriving at a better/wider understanding of the rationale of the "How" as appropriate.
The "teacher" and the "mentor" might be one and the same, for a small outfit it might have to be that way. But then the appropriate hat must be clearly worn. Not easy. Either role!

So, to try and answer your original post-in-a-nutshell Scrit.......
What kind of individual would consider such a career change? There are really only two groups of possible candidates - that's the ones who want to and the ones who have to.
The first will always tend to be more amenable (wants to be employed in a profession of his own choosing, wants to do it now because he can afford to, wants to work with wood, etc etc, whatever the motivation). The danger is that he may feel (more) strongly about 'being his own man', to be asking questions that sound like requesting justification rather than requesting clarity! A challenger, not a number!

The "has to" will be a paid employee, and possibly very little else, although he may well develop further, especially if the mentoring is effective!

We all know and understand that the vast majority of supervisory staff (the 'teacher') get the senior role because first and foremost they are technically good at their roles, not because their man-management skills are excellent.
But that only strengthens the argument for the mentor to be separate from the day-to-day functioning of the new-boy's world!

As for the question would there be problems with an older junior and a younger teacher?
Yes of course, for 99.9% of folk (there's just so few of us saints around!)
But the provision of an effective mentor would undoubtedly do a lot to help/ease the situation.

Good question!!

 

[mel]

hi scrit , very interesting read and subject matter
i think that we have spoken , in some depth, on this very subject in the past.
having taught young people and experienced all the problems associated with it . i soon learnt that it wasnt for me . and after coming away from teaching very "dispondant". I was pleased to learn {2yrs later} that most of the trainees missed my particular style/approach to teaching , and were sad to see me leave
we were teaching 16-25 yr olds, site joinery to nvq standard , and now , 4 yrs later . most of them do not have jobs as joiners
i still get asked back to the same organization to see if i want to give it another go , but im too happy doing what i do now
onto the subject of mentoring ,
as part of my own career development , i wanted to move on from being a site foreman, and into site management
now i know from experience that their are training organizations and there is the CITB {construction industry training board } so i opted with the citb , as this is recognised above all the other schemes
same qualification, but you want the real thing.
JOB SATISFACTION . i cant emphasize it strongly enough
if your not happy doing what you do . chances are you wont be very good at it
salary , small writing . and generally small figures
WAGES . large writting . and generally much better figures
for example , 9 months working nights in london , doing fasttrack shopfitting . earnt in excess of 50k
company changes the way its going to do things , and offers the same job on a salary of 28k to 32k , depending on experience . the words i used are not suitable for a family forum

all the above in my own experience
i could write a lot more , but ive forgoten the original questions :roll:

 

[Dibs-h]

I too, form part of the group that would like to give up the day job (IT, yes I know) and go self employed. Work - Life balance is being used a bit too liberally these days, especially by those who understand it the least. Employers\management that is.

One gets to a point in life where one's tolerance for fools diminishes to almost zero. It isn't helped by these fools thinking they can control your working life and some treat it like personal feifdoms. We've all experienced these forms of life in the past. This and the general dis-satisfaction with the rat race, is a large driver for me, and probably for most. There's only so long one can put up with meetings for meetings sake, and management who haven't a clue. Previously going Freelance would have been the solution - until HMG decided to take your pants off, let alone pull them down. [Sorry - rant over!]

Having spent so long in IT and having a skill set that's well paid and in demand, can make leaving IT, more difficult. However, there's only so long one can continue "making the Emperor's new clothes" before the rot sets in.

The hobby side of things is a great deal more rewarding. For me it's a case of trying to make a slow steady transition. For some months - I've been accepting work from friends\aquantancies, and kept track of how long\much it took as opposed to what I thought it would take\cost and thankfully as time goes on - the gap is almost zero. Although it's about the averages.

But then I'm fortunate enough to be multi-skilled - the only thing I'm not really interested in doing for others is roofing. For me, there needs to be multiple income streams - to not only provide a variety of work, but also to stabilise voids, etc. Whilst some of the work may having nothing to do with woodwork - it is unfortunately part of the bargain to pay the bills. Until you are able to pick and choose.

Sometimes, I find myself having to ask about something - it has never bothered me. As a child I was taught "To ask a question, is to suffer but a moments shame, but to remain ignorant is to remain a lifetimes shame." Believe you me that didn't half p*ss off a few teachers\lecturers later in life. The only difference now is that if the person I'm asking doesn't cut the mustard in terms of answer, manner, etc - I'll find someone else.

For me working for someone else would be difficult - I couldn't drop down to sub £10\hr, but it's as Greybeard said

- those who want to or those who have to.

I'm fortunate in falling into the want to camp.

I'm happy enough doing it part time - improving the numbers (time\materials\etc) and if I can make a go of it - will do, or if it doesn't go well, drop it back to a hobby, with the odd bit for a mate. I've found costing to be the hardest part - in the early days I've had jobs go completely loss making, to some jobs swing completely the other way.

It does require a slightly different way of thinking - production techniques, mechanisation, etc. - that has been the harder part, although not hugely difficult.

Tim nailed it on the head for me,

My plan though was to run a business first and that it happened to be in woodworking - I do see quite a few people trying to nail a business plan to a woodworking dream and that seems to me to be a recipe for disaster both emotionally and financially.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

My reasons for switching were simple - bored of corporate clap trap and dancing to others tunes, plus a hankering to combine creative and physical work while running my own business. Clearly you still end up dancing to the customer's tune but its ultimately your decision.

Hope it helps.

Dibs

p.s. Sorry for the rant

 

[ivan]

Personal career change:
I was set for electronics but a pre college year put paid to that - a rewarding 'constructive' environment of design etc., but I couldn't believe the lab politics which seemed to take 75% of staff processing power! Fell by accident into growing things (agriculture) where I found the craft a real and unexpected dream, but alas not financially viable. When qualified I had to indulge my new love by proxy as a technical adviser and later got involved in agricultural management and business training with the ITB. Woodworking, a life long interest, earns me a few bob in early retirement.

Staff development:
Agriculture (ag.) is also something of a niche - from experience, the truly skilled will usually respond when they know their skill is respected through being selected by the boss as an on the job instructor - for which they will need some training. Mentoring well requires its own people skills, not just job skills, but can be trained for. Bear in mind the mentor, however skilled at woodworking, may be learning his mentoring from scratch too!

By about 25 years ago quite serious problems had developed (in ag.) recruiting young people capable of developing a bit of enterprise and initiative (normal ag. working is usually unsupervised) Widespread discussion with schools and Careers Service suggested that in general other industries could pay more for such better quality 'raw material'. A tendency to seek older new recruits arose, where post child rearing adults might accept lower income for job satisfaction. There were some rapid promotions amongst this type of recruit whose ability to learn surprised the boss and became the subject of pub anecdote. This of course also needed a bit of carful handling...

My best mate is Head of Science at a Grammar school and summarising his moans(!)" the best are just as bright as ever, but almost uncontrolable!" I also wonder generally about the future, we've an 11 year old grandchild staying here on holiday whom I know his teachers rate as 'bright' (I've seen the reports) but he cannot manage to complete a postcard to send home to his Mum and Dad.