table saw fence parallel?

[memzey]

The way that I set up my table saw is covered above ref; use of the same tooth fore and aft of the arbour. I can’t see what advantage a bit of MDF would have over the steel plate of an actual saw.

 

[memzey]

the buggeration that is setting up my RAS*.

*I wouldn't dream of using this for cutting accurate right angles now. Hand tools every time......

As I intimidate earlier, in my limited experience I’d say setting up a RAS is far more involved and demanding than setting up a table saw however the end result can be as accurate as anything else in the workshop. It took a while to get it there but my RAS now cuts bob on 90* and 45* with no bother whatsoever. If you’re not happy with the results you’re getting from your machine Mike perhaps you could open a thread on it and others with the same one could share their experiences?

Sorry for the thread drift SB but you know me well enough by now!!!

 

[Noel]

the buggeration that is setting up my RAS*.

*I wouldn't dream of using this for cutting accurate right angles now. Hand tools every time......

As I intimidate earlier, in my limited experience I’d say setting up a RAS is far more involved and demanding than setting up a table saw however the end result can be as accurate as anything else in the workshop. It took a while to get it there but my RAS now cuts bob on 90* and 45* with no bother whatsoever. If you’re not happy with the results you’re getting from your machine Mike perhaps you could open a thread on it and others with the same one could share their experiences?

Sorry for the thread drift SB but you know me well enough by now!!!

+1.
Just built (another) new dust extraction fence and hood, reset it all and cuts lovely at 90 degrees. Use a mitre jig for any other angles.
With a bit of work on table, fence and the tool itself the RAS can be an accurate machine.

 

[Bodgers]

I dont mind you lot sneering at my weather this year (no, honestly :roll: )
this is my 11 th year here, and this is only the second wet winter.
The problem is its like deep snow in England, when it does happen nobody knows what to do with it. We dont even have mains drainage in the streets, let alone our houses.
Memzey might not like our summers, but roll on 35c (about another 3 weeks if I'm lucky) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Mike, a problem with your MDF test wheel, theres no way I could make a 30 mm hole in the middle of it and be CERTAIN its 90 degrees and concentric.

I don't think the MDF is goer. It is introducing another variable.

You need to be able to do the measurements with a decent, flat, blade in place.

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[MikeG.]

It's not that I can't set it accurately to 90 degrees. It's that the first bump (it's below my wood rack), or catch of the blade into something it doesn't like, and it's gone again.

 

[Sideways]

There should be a slightly wider gap between the fence and the back of the blade than the gap at the front edge of the blade. I was reading a saw manual the other day (I forget which) and they recommended 0.1mm wider.
Glancing through the manual for the 12" Wadkin BGS12 tablesaw, the recommendation is to align the blade exactly parallel with the mitre slot, and then measure the gap between the fence and the mitre slot. They recommend 1/32" or 0.8mm widening measured at the two ends of the fence rather than front and back edges of the blade. That's perhaps closer to 0.2mm difference between the front and back edges of the blade.
Cheers

 

[Steve Maskery]

There should be a slightly wider gap between the fence and the back of the blade than the gap at the front edge of the blade.

That is fine, provided that you only ever want to use the saw for ripping, and you don't mind what happens to the piece on the other side. If that is just waste, then no problem.

But what happens if the piece on the left is just as important as the piece on the right?

I have a tenon jig which rides on the fence. Clearance on the the RH side means that there is rubbing on the LH side.

It's judgment call, certainly, and that depends on what you do with your saw, but it certainly is not black-and-white.

I sent out my DVD TS collection to Cyprus just a couple of weeks ago. I assumed it was to SunnyBob, but clearly I was mistaken! Find your woody neighbours, Bob (there can't be many woody TS novices on Cyprus, surely), they may be able to help you out!

 

[screwpainting]

Having just read this thread with interest (and sober for a change) I wonder that the actual accuracy of the fence is not mentioned. By that I mean, do you check that the fence will always maintain its squareness 'every time' it is moved and re clamped. I have only ever used an old but much loved Elu flip saw and used it mainly to fit a lovely old range of very expensive Belgian kitchens made by 'Ilwa' now defunct I think. The carcass material for these kitchens was laminated chipboard not melamine, immensely strong, hard on tools, lovely to work with but a sod to cut. The vast majority of the range was solid oak everything, massive cornices and light screens with veneered end panels etc. I can honestly say that I very rarely had issues cutting any of the sheet materials involved and that was with the original Elu eighty tooth blade, the cut was invariably faultless, by any standard.
The thing is, the fence on the elu simply clamps as per any flipsaw, and as you all will know the blade is moved to all sorts of angles all the time so there is no way you can obsess over it lining up with the fence with any consistency, just set and lock it in the mitre saw mode and flip it over. I will shortly be getting a table saw, and only hope I get as much precision as with my Elu, but this whole setting up fences and general fettling has me wondering how I ever produced the results I did with what seems to be considered a bit of a sitework beast.
Just how accurate does a table saw fence have to be? I have never attempted to make any kind of fine furniture and don't really know what I am talking about other than what I used to do years ago. But I have to say the amount of micro adjusting and incredible precision that seems to be demanded today from woodworking machines (router fences/jigs :shock: :shock: )makes me wonder if I am in for an old dog, new tricks brain hemorrhage.

Sorry to waffle but the squareness of a table saw fence to the blade, to the sort of accuracy that needs to be measured beyond the accuracy of half a knatscock, seems like only half the story unless you also check that the fence maintains more or less zero travel after being moved every time. My old Elu must have been/be all over the place.

This is a good thread for me as the various degrees of accuracy in proper woodworking is a subject I am very uncertain about (if not suspicious of) and want to understand.

 

[sunnybob]

Steve, interesting that you have a customer here. Sorry it isnt me, but I've spent my birthday money on the saw. :lol: I've never found anyone else on island interested in "hobby" woodworking. I even advertised when I first started with no success.
If you have his address, would you be prepared to send my details to him to see if he wanted to get in touch? If so, PM me and I will send you my email address to pass on.

As far as accuracy on the saw goes (hey, we're back to the original post :shock: ) what I am interested in is accurate straight cuts on quite small pieces, rather than the measurements themselves. The wood lifts up on the back teeth so I know thats wrong.

To give dewalt its due, the fence is am amazing piece of engineering, easily and quickly replaceable to the same spot on either side of the blade, rack and pinion adjustment both side of the table, and even an accurate scale for each setting. Spring clips into slots front and back.
There is a very slight lean into the blade but a 1 mm shim under the lower fixing bolts will sort that.
From all of the above I now have to achieve the following;
Align the blade with the mitre slot to a zero tolerance
Align the fence to the blade with a very close tolerance erring on wider at the rear if needed

At the moment its not raining so today could be a workshop day. =D> =D> =D>

 

[sunnybob]

Well, its not good. I think I have found the limitation of this saw.
the blade is 0.28 mm off set from the mitre slot, closing towards the fence when its on the right. I have had it apart, upside down, and sideways on. I have adjusted all the adjusting screws, and it just springs back to the same measurement.
The problem seems to be in the screw thread that raises and lowers the blade. Its slack. Holding the motor i can rock the motor / blade by more than the discrepancy with everything as tight as it should be. I've tried adjusting it past the line and letting it settle back, no success at all. I cant even move the table because everything is bolted to the table. With the only option a complete stripdown, and even then no certainty of a cure, I'm going to have to live with it, yet again cursing all woodworking machinery designers and manufacturers

 

[johnnyb]

I'm guessing the assembly is bolted underneath the table. Loosen then knock around. Ideally you'd like the front of the blade cutting and the rear of the blade just scratching. Ie the opposite of your current alignment.

 

[screwpainting]

Well, its not good. I think I have found the limitation of this saw.
the blade is 0.28 mm off set from the mitre slot, closing towards the fence when its on the right.

Seriously? 0.28mm. What difference is this making to the way the machine actually cuts Bob.
That reads bloody nigh perfect to me and certainly good enough for anything made out of wood (by me,anyway). Is that type of fence supposed to be super accurate at every position after being moved? I would have thought it must have a degree of variation, its a mobile unit after all and would be prone to getting knocked out of set occasionally. If it gives you an acceptable cut I would be happy with that and just get to know its foibles.

Just my two bobs worth.

 

[sammy.se]

I thought the fence shouldn't extend past the first half of the blade to the back??

For safety, to avoid kickback...

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[Steve Maskery]

That is true for ripping, Sammy, yes. If the wood springs apart, the RH piece has somewhere to go, rather than pushing the rest of the workpiece into the blade.
If cutting board material, it not so much of a problem. And of course, if you were cross-cutting you wouldn't use the rip-fence at all, not even as a stop (unless it was pulled right back).
The trouble is that, on such a small machine, and with a fence clamp of that design, the fence has to reach the back in order to clamp successfully.
A Beismeyer-style 3-point head is better, but more expensive and takes up more rail space.

 

[Bodgers]

Well, its not good. I think I have found the limitation of this saw.
the blade is 0.28 mm off set from the mitre slot, closing towards the fence when its on the right.

Seriously? 0.28mm. What difference is this making to the way the machine actually cuts Bob.
That reads bloody nigh perfect to me and certainly good enough for anything made out of wood (by me,anyway). Is that type of fence supposed to be super accurate at every position after being moved? I would have thought it must have a degree of variation, its a mobile unit after all and would be prone to getting knocked out of set occasionally. If it gives you an acceptable cut I would be happy with that and just get to know its foibles.

Just my two bobs worth.

I agree. This is a site saw after all, not a precision furniture making cabinet saw. Probably within tolerance.

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[basssound]

The DW745 is a site saw and that's as far as it goes, it's awesome at its job but if you want fine furniture tolerances then you'll have to cough up for an expensive workshop saw.

I really can't fault my DW745 and replacing the insert for a zero tolerance insert makes the cuts crisp and clean and effortless.

 

[memzey]

Oi you lot - stop telling bob his saw is not precise - we’ll have another saga before you know it!!

In all seriousness I’m sure it can be as precise as you can be pineappled to fettle it to. Much like the RAS you’ll no doubt get diminishing returns as you dial it in but soon enough you’ll get it where you want it.

 

[sunnybob]

I accept and agree with all of your comments on this being a site saw. I could not afford a cabinet saw so I bought this and thats what it is, and as such, I think it must be one of the best.

You know theres a "but" coming dont you?

BUT, the number is not relevant. I measured it to prove the point and the point is that if i cut a piece of wood it pulls up at the back of the blade and damages the cut edge. THATS not acceptable and THATS what I'm trying to rectify.

I'm making a taper cut jig, but it rides along the fence. If the fence isnt parallel, then my taper cut is not what I want it to be.

I think the fence is top notch design, and believe me when I say thats the very first piece of woodworking machinery I have ever praised! =D> =D>
But it suffers from "within tolerance" manufacturing. As I cant take mohamed to the mountain, I shall do the opposite and reverse engineer the fence both to straighten it relative to the blade and make it vertical relative to the table.

It WILL perform, because it really doesnt want to see me stamp my feet and hold my breath till I turn blue. (hammer) (hammer) (hammer)

 

[Bodgers]

BUT, the number is not relevant. I measured it to prove the point and the point is that if i cut a piece of wood it pulls up at the back of the blade and damages the cut edge. THATS not acceptable and THATS what I'm trying to rectify.
)

Not only that, but it sounds dangerous.

Looking at a PDF copy of the online manual, it has this to say:

Fence Alignment Adjustment (Fig. 4, 5)
(Blade Parallel to Fence)
If you experience fence alignment problems and want to correct an out of parallel
between the fence and the blade, be sure to check the alignment of the blade to
the miter slot first. After confirming that those elements are aligned, proceed with
alignment of the blade to the fence using the following procedure:
1. Unlock the rail lock lever (W) and locate the two fence locator screws (AA) that
support the fence on the front and rear rails.
2. Loosen the rear locator screw and adjust the position of the fence in the
groove on the fence until it sets the fence face parallel to the blade. Make sure
you measure from the fence face to the front and back of the blade to ensure
alignment.
3. Tighten the locator screw and repeat on the left side of the blade.
4. Check rip scale adjustment.





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[ColeyS1]

I spent days trying to cure my table saw with similar issues. In the end after many frustrating hours of trying to cure it I narrowed the problem down to the rise and fall mechanism. If I wound the blade down the fence would be miles out of parallel to everything. If I wound the blade down but then wound it back up a smidgen all issues would be resolved. The saw needs the rise and fall mechanism to be finished on the upstroke for everything to be hunky dory- so simple now I know that's what was causing the issue. Maybe your saw suffers from something similar ? This was happening on a 10ft travel tablesaw so it wasn't a lower priced machine !

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