Sweeping up

[doctor Bob]

Jacob's theory, if you held the broom with 2 sticks would it make it safer?

 

[Ttrees]

Can't someone just make a brush that spritzes a mist on front of the bristles, and stick a magnet on it too?
Dang, I coulda been rich if I kept this idea all to myself #-o

 

[Bm101]

..... When someone passed a law saying the Bosses were responsible or they go to chokey. Everything changed overnight significantly. Who's have thought. :roll:

Sorry Chris but that isn't quite right. Corporate manslaughter legislation doesn't have any impact on individuals. As the name suggests it's the corporate body that faces charges hence only fines likely.

Strangely enough the legislation to imprison individuals has been contained within the H&S act since the 70's although rarely used.

What corporate manslaughter law did was focus senior management on some of the tests used to prove said corporate liability and these included individual liabilities (consent, neglect or connivance used to be the phrase) which could in turn lead to personal liabilities.

I used to know chapter and verse but been out of the game for a while now.

Please don't apologise, I am always happy to be corrected by someone with better knowledge. It's how we learn and long may it last. But essentially the point remains as I think you made clear and concisely. The change in focus of the work related laws led to better practice generally. A Good Thing then.
Much as I moan. I wouldn't go back. Sod that. In 4 (unusual) years I saw 3 guys I knew well have life changing accidents. Bad training, poor work practice, general couldn'tgiveafuc*ness led to all 3 guys not going home the same ever again. It was a common thing at one time. No Abseilers btw.
All them handsome photos of the 1920s skyscraper workers eating their lunches on a girder hide a terrible and deceitful lie.
Tragically one fella, a youngish fella, nice lad, we saw on a job one morning all dressed up, helmet, hi vis fall arrest. As abseilers you don't really think about all that it becomes your everyday wear but then it was quite rare to see your average shiner all dressed up. Well done Tony, we said. Ahhh He winked. The Bosses are about. But leave it on anyway we said. Whats the harm eh? Later that day he went to do some private work. Some woman walks past some london basement railings, she sees a ladder at a crooked angle. That's odd. Looks down from curiosity. There's Tony. No Helmet. Not quite dead. Huge brain injury, 2 kids.
Another mate of mine, we shared a house, walked a ledge 3 footwide, one floor up. London hospital of sorts. He fell off. The silly person. You could have driven a stolen Corsa down this bacony pineappled. Fell onto the iron railings underneath. His harness, which he was wearing but never tied in eventually save his life by hooking him and saving his eventual descent onto a cement mixer below. His workmate was a weight lifter so had the strength to keep the fence from ripping his vitals out. School of tropical diseases. Some of the best doctors with him in minutes. Air lifted out by heli. How's your luck?
I'm all for the HSE and safe working practice.
It's just the self generation of nonsense that depresses me. Sign here. And here. And here. Are you wearing a high vis?

 

[RobinBHM]

I have found insurers more of an issue than HSE.

The last insurance inspector I had managed to add a load of extra regulations he though should apply along with some other bits:

DSEAR
Noise testing
Fork lift to be stored with 2metre space all round
No skip adjacent to building


We already were doing:
Dust extraction LEV
Compressed air system testiny
Electrical fixed installation testing
Fire survey
Full written health and safety policy with risk assessments
Annual warm air heater service and testtng
LODOR fork lift test
Fork lift driving test
St Johns ambulance first aid course for first aiders

I can see how it is all justified but its a lot to deal with for a small company, esp when you add in all the other admin like staff pension returns, CIS, VAT, making tax digital, data protection. Blah blah.

 

[Hugopuk]

I think it is fair to say the HSE are not perfect but with the work they have done getting companies to acknowledge their responsibilities towards their employees in the UK has made it one of the safest places in the world to work. I read stories in the H and S press that comes to me and it makes me shudder to think we could still be working in conditions often seen in some of the developing world if it was not for things like the 1974 Health and Safety at work act et al.

Yes, it's not perfect, legislation is applied differently by the inspectors, and yes we do have to pay for it and often it is infuriating when you just want to crack on but sit back, consider what you are doing and more often than not all the HSE have asked you to do is consider all the options, once these have been explored you generally have protected your employees and your company. against any prosecution.

As someone on here has said already, the forum has a balanced view and considering the subject I am sure we all who have contributed to the tread have dust extractors and chip collectors that are in full working order and have dust masks, eye and ear protection, gloves and suitable clothing that are worn at all times, even in bed just in case a woodwork project breaks out in the middle of the night!!!

 

[TFrench]

Was talking to a chap the other day who said they'd been banned from sweeping up on site. All very well till the battery dies in your cordless Hoover because we can't have trailing cables either and you can't clean up after yourself.... We're working on a site where the health and safety managers are in a competition to be the "biggest c**t" (their words!) And it's horrendous. Give 2 bullies ultimate power and watch them go. You can't argue with them because technically they're enforcing the law, just with no thought as to how it's actually applied.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[lurker]

Tom,
The main problem with H&S managers is they are often very poorly qualified and interperet "the law" badly. You can usually recognise them as they actually quote law rather than explaining good pragmatic safety practices.
Generally speaking H&S managers are "NEBOSH" qualified.
You can get a certificate with 12 days training including the exams: I used be an examiner for the certificate and some of the candidates (who scraped a pass) were dire.
A real safety manager will be Chartered and believe me that takes far more study and validation.
As you know I am deaf : once I was approaching a group of blokes about 4 metres up. I saw (lip read) a particular trouble maker say to his mate "watch out here comes that H&S c**t".
When I got closer I shouted up to him "This H&S c**t thinks your harness would work better if it was clipped on. Its not a f***king parachute"
If you are H&S you please no one although I got on better with the blokes than the senior managers.

 

[AJB Temple]

Let me give an employer's perspective too. I used to run a property development company. Most of our business was converting large manor houses into a number of flats and houses. So big buildings and a lot of structural work, and most people hired under the CIS scheme (ie self employed trades).

It was the devils own job to get workers to wear or use basic safety gear. Like steel toe capped boots, helmets, safety goggles, dust masks. It's bizarre at times, you will get workers actively undermining safety. I lost count of the number of times I would turn up on site unexpectedly and find someone doing something stupid for which I was liable as employer.

This was 10 years ago and I sold the business, so I expect it is a lot better nowadays.

 

[Doug71]

I dread to think what health and safety would have made of the workshop I trained in. The only machines with dust extraction were the 4 & 5 cutter, everything else just had big piles of sawdust and wood shavings around them. The only time the wood shavings got cleared from around the PT was when they were piled so high you could not use it anymore. The old 5 cutter used square blocks, if there was just a small batch of moulding to do we would just use one of those blocks in the spindle moulder to save re setting the 5 cutter.

It horrifies me to look back at what was just normal at the time, things have changed a lot now, definitely for the better.

 

[Bm101]

This was 10 years ago and I sold the business, so I expect it is a lot better nowadays.

:-| Probably.... :-s Maybe. :-"

 

[tomatwark]

At my former premises the landlords insurance guy told me I needed a DSEAR test on my equipment.

I pointed out we already did LEV which is the requirement and then asked him how many woodworking shops he had inspected.

He went very quiet and did not answer the question.

Insurance inspectors have no power, other than to their companies and if you get one who does .not know what he is doing change insurance companies.

I did not have to do DSEAR test in the end the landlords insurance company backed off