SRG on Bowls, Wrong/Right

[robo hippy]

Well, this hasn't made it to this forum yet, but it bought up a very long thread in Australia, and on the forums here. Food for thought.

From Robbo in Australia, why you don't use it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY

My version on how to use a spindle roughing gouge on bowls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwlAb2BW ... ll&list=WL

I tried Robbo's cut, with the handle lowered, and rubbing the bevel. Surprisingly it worked, with a fairly clean cut. As near as I can tell, he gets the catch when he extends out fairly far, and raises the handle. When the handle is raised, he comes off the bevel, and unlike a skew which skates down the cylinder, the gouge has no place to go but down. Inside wing catches a fraction of a second before the rest of the gouge does, and blood is donated. I have found that used properly, you can get a really nice clean cut, even in some very difficult woods.

robo hippy

 

[nev]

I'm with you on this one robo, flute at 90deg (or should that be -90, or 270 ? well facing the direction of travel. well i know what i mean #-o ), tool side firm on a closely positioned rest. that way even if it does catch its not going anywhere, and hopefully not drawing any blood!
law 4. in the Rowley bible is : the only part of the tool that should be in contact with the wood is that part of the tool that is receiving direct support from the toolrest.

 

[jumps]

Inside wing catches a fraction of a second before the rest of the gouge does, and blood is donated.

robo hippy

but it's clearly the outside wing that caught here........

anyhow, you seem to be at the opposite ends of the practical elements of bowl turning - ones' roughing a square blank and the other is taking finishing cuts on a formed curve.

there doesn't seem to be any disagreement that it shouldn't be used to rough a bowl blank - you say the same thing in your video - so the key elements become how are you using it for finishing cuts rather than what are you using (from a safety perspective).

 

[Richard Findley]

Hi all

I can't get sound on my PC at the moment, don't ask!! :evil: but I've taken a little look at the videos. My thoughts are that, although it is possible to use a SRG on a bowl if you know what you are doing there seems little point as it is dangerous (even experts get catches from time to time, just a catch in this case could be very dangerous indeed!!!) and a properly sharpened bowl gouge will do the same cuts but SAFELY!!

Cheers

Richard

 

[CHJ]

I must say that I am with Richard here regarding safety, and I personally think that anything that promotes the use of a spindle roughing gouge for cutting across endgrain in a public manner that can be mis-interpreted by a turning novice who is likely to see it in isolation without the benefit of the supporting knowledge is irresponsible.

A quick view of seeing one used for a planing cut on a smooth curve could well result in attempts to do what was demonstrated in the first video and not only result in cuts but pieces of splintered wood embedded in unwanted places or even a broken wrist.

We all know that it is possible to use turning tools for tasks they were not intended for, most of us who have been turning for a few years are experienced enough to have seen the results of getting it wrong and stick to using the safest tool possible, that way the margin before a handling error or a moments in-attention is wider and not solely dependant on personal skill or knowledge of limitations.
I have seen a 16mm HSS bowl gouge that bent from having a wing catch, the thought of what might have happened to a spindle roughing gouge with its weak tang/handle join in close proximity to someones ribs with the same sort of catch is not one I wish to dwell on.

 

[Blister]

#-o

Am I missing something :?:

In the first video he is using a spindle roughing gouge on a square bowl blank #-o Doh (homer)

In the second , a swept wing spindle roughing gouge for a finishing cut on the outside of a bowl :?

I must be missing something #-o

easier to use the correct tools for the correct jobs :mrgreen:

 

[robo hippy]

In the second one, it is a standard 1 inch or so SRG that is ground square across the nose. There are right and wrong ways to use just about any tool. There are plenty of tools that are better suited for my type of finish cut that I show. The higher the shear angle, while rubbing the bevel, the cleaner the cut will be.

I guess what I am preaching here is learning and teaching proper tool technique. That is the most important thing to me as you can get in to bad situations if you don't know what you are doing.

robo hippy

 

[myturn]

There are so many people who preach how tools should be used.

I use my gouges in ways that I'm sure many of the "experts" would consider wrong but it works for me and I understand why it works and I still have all my fingers.

As long as you understand the forces acting on the tool and present and support it appropriately you can often find alternative solutions that the purists decry as "wrong".

 

[jpt]

One reason for not using a SRG on a bowl

 

[Mark Hancock]

I guess what I am preaching here is learning and teaching proper tool technique. That is the most important thing to me as you can get in to bad situations if you don't know what you are doing.

robo hippy

You forgot to say that you should also be teaching what tool is suitable for what job. :?:

Yes it is possible to do anything with any tool but it's not always safe to do so. The Spindle Roughing Gouge is not designed for making cuts like those shown in both videos. A bloody finger in the first video was the 'lucky' outcome as jpt's photo shows.

Both videos should not be in the public domain. It's totally irresponsible. I'm with Richard, Chas, Blister and jpt.

 

[Richard Findley]

There are so many people who preach how tools should be used.

I use my gouges in ways that I'm sure many of the "experts" would consider wrong but it works for me and I understand why it works and I still have all my fingers.

As long as you understand the forces acting on the tool and present and support it appropriately you can often find alternative solutions that the purists decry as "wrong".

I'm a professional turner but around 90% of my work is spindle type work, so you can choose to listen to me or not, however, take a look at how professional bowl turners work. When the likes of Glen Lucas or Mike Mahoney pick up a SPINDLE Roughing Gouge for their production rather than a bowl gouge (and this will be around the time the government reduces VAT to 4%, petrol costs 35p a litre and Pigs build their nests in the tops of trees :roll: ) then perhaps it will be considered a good idea, until then I think we should stick to using the best tool for the job: A Bowl gouge for bowls!!!!

Cheers

Richard

 

[robo hippy]

Well, this was intended for discussion, and I got that. The responses have been pretty much the same in all the forums I have posted it in. Some say never use it on a bowl. Some have used it for years this way. I do not preach using it for finish cuts, and said so in my video, there are other tools that are designed for that. I do think that a beginner is just as likely to see some one using a SRG on spindles and make the connection that it is a "roughing" gouge and attempt to use it on bowls, as they are to see some one using it on bowls for a finish cut and make the same judgement error.

I never have been one to accept "don't do this because it is dangerous". I can accept risk factors, but the curious side me has to know the how and why, thus my efforts to explain why it doesn't work, and/or why other tools and methods work better. Education is the key, and these videos do that.

Like an old saying goes, "You can never make some thing totally idiot proof. If you do, then some one will invent a better idiot."

robo hippy

 

[Paul Hannaby]

I think posting the video showing the use of the spindle roughing gouge for finishing cuts on a bowl is counter productive if your real intention is to show safe methods of working and correct usage of tools.

To put this in context, we are told walking across the road without looking is not safe so would you blindfold yourself and record your attempts as a way of proving this too?

Both would be equally irresponsible in my opinion.

 

[robo hippy]

Walking across a road without looking or blindfolded is dangerous. Using a SRG the way I do in the video is not. There is no way you can get a catch with that cut in that manner. The same cut is frequently done with the Continental style gouge which is the same style of gouge, but the flutes are more ( shaped compared to C shaped. The corners can not come in contact with the wood, and the part that is cutting is over the tool rest. I can do the same bevel rubbing cut with a standard gouge, swept back gouge, bottom of the bowl gouge, skewchigouge, fluteless gouge, and a scraper. They can be done inside or outside of the bowl. I can get the same catches as in Robbo's video, with all of those tools. If used properly, they do not catch.

robo hippy

 

[petercharlesfagg]

Hi all

I can't get sound on my PC at the moment, don't ask!! :evil: but I've taken a little look at the videos. My thoughts are that, although it is possible to use a SRG on a bowl if you know what you are doing there seems little point as it is dangerous (even experts get catches from time to time, just a catch in this case could be very dangerous indeed!!!) and a properly sharpened bowl gouge will do the same cuts but SAFELY!!

Cheers

Richard

I too agree with Richard.

The other side of the coin is that the tang on the tool tends to be thin in comparison to the tool size, it would be far safer to use a large bowl gouge where the toolsteel stays the same diameter and extends back into the handle.

Having seen the results of mishandling tools or tools not fit for purpose over the years, it is just not worth the hassle!

Regards Peter.

 

[Paul Hannaby]

A continental gouge is not the same thing as a spindle roughing gouge. The only thing they have in common is a reduced tang. The much deeper U section of the SRG would mean the cut with the SRG would be much farther off the point of support from the rest. This makes the tool unstable, which in the wrong hands could lead to a catch (even without the wings making contact with the wood) with serious consequences.

A circular section gouge would be a safer and more stable tool to use so why pretend otherwise?

 

[robo hippy]

Paul,

I did check out your web site. Nice stuff, and you obviously have done a lot of turning. I don't understand your comment about pretending otherwise. I guess we both scratch our heads and agree to disagree. I think that I may know a trick or two with the SRG that you do not know. Any tool can catch, if it is not properly presented to the wood.

robo hippy

 

[Lightweeder]

Seems to me it's a completely different tool when the sides are ground back. I mean, that's why we all like the 'fingernail' grind on the spindle gouge - simply minimising unnecessary risk.

Can anyone explain to me why the tang on the SRG is so weak when it's the tool we use for the roughest work ?

 

[Blister]

When using a SRG its not the tool that's at fault its the user

When roughing a 4" square piece between centers or a big diameter log

You start with the tool rest close to the work and above center height but not touching the wood

When using the SRG start with the handle low and gradually lift the handle slowly until it starts to cut

As the stock is removed most novice users just keep going ,pushing the chisel forward and increasing the cutting edge overhang , increasing the levering effect , then BANG a catch and the chisel goes into orbit

If you keep moving the tool rest closer to the work you are reducing the levering effect :wink:

 

[jumps]

Can anyone explain to me why the tang on the SRG is so weak when it's the tool we use for the roughest work ?

the SRG is designed to be used fully suported ie the cutting edge is kept close to the tool rest

it's only really the bowl gouge that is designed to handle any leaverage load ie with the cutting edge some distance from the tool rest at times - which also makes the latter much better for handling 'real roughing'. It's not only stronger but longer, to enable the operator to handle (sry... :lol: ) such loads.