Spindle Moulder Tooling - Single Knife?

[CaptainBarnacles]

I have just purchased my first spindle moulder, a second hand Kity 1629, and it arrived with a load of tooling and knives. I have sorted through them all and there are dozens of knives which have no matching knife, ie not a pair. I am not about to mount a single knife in a block and spin it up but does anyone know if it can, or should, be done? Can you fit a balancing piece in the other half of the block to stop any wobble or is it the case that in a heavy steel block the imbalance isn't significant?

The moulder scares me a little (read, scares me a lot!) as I have never used one before and it seems to have great potential for limb removal so I am not going to attempt anything that isn't safe but I just wondered why anyone would hang on to all these single knives if they were of no use.

 

[Jacob]

Shouldn't be done (of course) but it was normal (in the bad old days) to balance a single cutting blade against one as near as you could get.
Finger removal avoided by ALWAYS using two longish push-sticks and all possible guarding, better still a power feed.
Eye ball protection - goggles and guarding.
Good thing to be over cautious. If you are not sure then first cuts best practiced with a small cutter on the corner of a large timber say a bit of 9x3 joist off-cut. Less danger of flying bits!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Can you fit a balancing piece in the other half of the block to stop any wobble or is it the case that in a heavy steel block the imbalance isn't significant?

We used to fit balancing cutters all the time, the profile of which didn't match the desired profile that we'd ground up on a single cutter -- the trick was to find a slightly heavier cutter and set it deeper into the block so that it simply span without engaging the wood, but served as a balancer. It was common practice back in the 1970s, 80s and even (just about) into the 90s. It was common practice for decades before that too, as were French heads, dumpling blocks, and other assorted spindle moulder techniques that would scare the brown stuff out of the backside of most modern young woodworkers. You can't even buy the cutter blocks, such as slotted collars that would allow this practice now as they were effectively banned from sale something like twenty, thirty or more years ago, although I've still got some I can use if needed (and no-one's looking) for a special, short run, one off profile.

Probably the most impressive and scary moulding operation I've seen done on a spindle moulder was when the elderly wood machinist, with most of his fingers missing, in one of the workshops I worked in early in my career, ran a compound curved banister rail freehand over a dumpling against a bearing and French head with a self ground cutter to create the profile.

You're right to be wary of spindle moulders-- there's a hell of a lot a novice has to learn to use one with both confidence and safety, and they're not machines, even in their contemporary sanitised form, that can be used with impunity.

I would, however, in your situation, probably ditch all the single cutters, or at least put them away for historical interest only, because using them nowadays is illegal in a professional workshop, and amateurs and even professional woodworkers can get serious injuries from their use, even if they know what they're doing. Stick with using the modern safety cutters with limiters and the like. Slainte.

 

[CaptainBarnacles]

Ok, doable but really not advisable, thank you for the information.

In the interests of keeping all the limbs I was born with I think I'll stick to modern gear and proceed very gingerly.

I bought the moulder mostly for tenoning and rebating but the sheer quantity of profiled knives that arrived with it (I counted over a hundred and some have more than one profile ground on them!) intrigued me. I have tried using them as cabinet scrapers and they work very nicely. Perhaps I now have the UK's most impressive collection of profiled scrapers :lol:

 

[Jacob]

..........
I bought the moulder mostly for tenoning and rebating but the sheer quantity of profiled knives that arrived with it (I counted over a hundred and some have more than one profile ground on them!) ........

What used to happen is that a profile would be knocked up on a bench grinder for one job, then modified for another, the another added to the side, and so on, getting smaller and smaller!
This process made spindle moulding phenomenally cheap - a few cheap home made multiple cutters replacing thousands of pounds worth of off-the-peg spindle or router cutters.

 

[CaptainBarnacles]

What used to happen is that a profile would be knocked up on a bench grinder for one job, then modified for another, the another added to the side, and so on, getting smaller and smaller!
This process made spindle moulding phenomenally cheap - a few cheap home made multiple cutters replacing thousands of pounds worth of off-the-peg spindle or router cutters.

Aah. That would make sense. Some of the cutters I have seem to have 3 or 4 different profiles ground on different edges. I suppose it is a good idea in theory and a great way to amass a huge collection of profiles cheaply, it's just the safety aspect that is concerning.

 

[Jacob]

....... I suppose it is a good idea in theory ......

Theory? It's a bloody good idea in practice - except for the safety issue. Mind you they are a lot safer than the previous generation - square block, french, etc .
The Whitehill block holding plain cutters was the safety block of its day, until the 1980s or so.

 

[CaptainBarnacles]

....... I suppose it is a good idea in theory ......

Theory? It's a bloody good idea in practice - except for the safety issue.

:lol:

Can't argue with that Jacob.

Is the main safety issue the fact that there is no limiter and could therefor take giant chunks out of your hands, or is it more about the potential for the knife to kick the work back as there is only one cut per revolution?

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Is the ... safety issue the fact that there is no limiter and could therefor take giant chunks out of your hands

That's one.

... is it more about the potential for the knife to kick the work back as there is only one cut per revolution?

That's another.

In addition there's the potential for the cutter(s) to slip out of the block and becoming a projectile, and the potential for the cutter(s) to break, therefore another method for it or them to become projectiles.

As Jacob mentioned, slotted collars, old style Whitehill 'safety' blocks and French heads were pussy cat cats to work with compared to working with antediluvian square head blocks, which really did have a well earned fearsome reputation for injury and amputation. I've seen a few of those running too, and I think I've still got one or two rusting away gently in a cupboard somewhere. The big square heads sound something like howling banshees as they build up speed, and the noise at running speed is sometimes almost unbearably loud. The same applies to square head knife blocks in old fashioned (nineteenth century mostly) surface planers and thicknessers-- they all move a lot of air as they rotate, hence the noise, especially if you've got an extraction system. Slainte.

 

[CaptainBarnacles]

I dread to think how fast a knife would hurl itself through the air if it was unleashed from a 6" block doing 4800RPM. It's not hard to see why the new cutters have holes or serrations. Thankfully I don't have any of the 'howling banshees' but I do have a few Whitehill blocks. Should the knives be fully captive within these blocks? One block (5" x 7/8") arrived with a pair of 80mm cutters mounted in it. It looks very odd to see that much knife projecting out of the top and bottom of the block. Is that a common practice? I presume it's not an entirely safe practice to have that much of the knife unsupported.

I am also starting to appreciate why most moulders have power feeds fitted. Not to sound too wussy about this but I would much rather offer up the timber to the power feed and stand back than push the work through manually (even with long push sticks).

I have been using a router table for years and if I had to cut a substantial rebate I would do it in several passes. My understanding was that the moulder should do it in one pass but working with seasoned oak do you think it would be best to take it steady and do the same or am I missing the whole point of having a moulder by doing that i.e. it is designed to speed up the process by cutting the rebate in one pass? Or is taking such a heavy bite something that should be left to power fed machines?

 

[Jacob]

Have a go with something safe such as a large piece of softwood. You will soon get a feel for it.
Hand feeding a large rebate is perfectly possible but if the machine is small it might be easier in several passes.

Power feed not only faster and safer but also produce a much better finish - non of the stopping, starting, wobbling of hand feeding.

 

[wallace]

If you want some more info on cutters and stuff, have a look at this thread. Theres some very usefull information.
http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/sh ... ling-Types

 

[Jacob]

If you want some more info on cutters and stuff, have a look at this thread. Theres some very usefull information.
http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/sh ... ling-Types

Scrit! Pleased to see him posting. It's been a long time!

 

[tomatwark]

I have seen a cutter come out of a block on a couple of occasions and seeing the remains of the cutter buried in a concrete block wall make you aware what would happen if you were in the firing line.

The other thing is a slightly unbalanced block in a lump of Wadkin cast iron will run with very little vibration, but in a light weight spindle like the Kity will vibrate like mad and possibly cause the machine to walk across the floor.

I would invest in a modern style block, you are meant to use limiters when hand feeding if you are running a business but the block will run with cutters only and a pair of packers in place of the limiters, this is a lot safer than the old style Whitehill blocks and you will have a balanced block.

One thing about limiters is you get a lot better finish by using them as the limiter removes most of the waste first leaving the cutter to finish the cut.

If you have not used a moulder before I would get some one to show you how as even with modern tooling they are still very unforgiving.

Tom

 

[wallace]

Yes Jacob he has been coaxed out of forum retirement by Jack I think. Phill is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to old iron.

 

[CaptainBarnacles]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I did get a Whitehill Euro block with the moulder but there's only half a dozen sets of knives for it, as opposed to over a hundred that fit in the old Whitehill steel blocks. The lure of all those profiles was pretty tempting to try but I am thinking that I'll just leave them alone. The Kity isn't a heavy machine and whilst I could bolt it down to the floor I am just not convinced that using single knives in an old style block is a risk I am prepared to take (at least not with my level of experience anyway).

I hadn't realised that limiters actually did any cutting, I thought they were there just to restrict how much knife surface was exposed to any limbs that may get in there, shows how little I know about the subject! I have ordered Roy Sutton's Basic Spindle Moulding DVD to bring me up to speed before I put knife to wood.

 

[Sawyer]

An old boy whom I learned with, had also served in World War II. Used to stress safety to me, deploring the low H&S standards of 'the old days'. He likened flying cutters to shrapnel - and he'd seen his fair share of both! Said he'd seen cutters embed themselves in walls and disappear entirely into ceilings.
I don't know if he exaggerated a little, but I certainly took his advice to heart and resolved never to take unnecessary risks.

Probably best to dispose of the single cutters and remove temptation.

 

[CaptainBarnacles]

An old boy whom I learned with, had also served in World War II. Used to stress safety to me, deploring the low H&S standards of 'the old days'. He likened flying cutters to shrapnel - and he'd seen his fair share of both! Said he'd seen cutters embed themselves in walls and disappear entirely into ceilings.
I don't know if he exaggerated a little, but I certainly took his advice to heart and resolved never to take unnecessary risks.

Cautionary tales like that, from people who have more experience than I ever will, make me really stop and take stock. A few years ago, after the birth of my first son, I quit my career as a helicopter pilot because I considered the risks involved and didn't much like the odds. Not long after two good friends (both excellent pilots) were involved in two separate serious accidents. One narrowly escaped with his life, the other wasn't so lucky. I know that you can't live life without taking a few risks here and there but nowadays I put a lot more thought into potentially dangerous activities before doing them.

Probably best to dispose of the single cutters and remove temptation.

They are relegated to a pile of profiled scrapers, the Whitehill cutter blocks are going though - that will remove the temptation.

 

[Jacob]

I'll have them!
Yes be cautious but people do like scare stories! I had a cutter fly loose once. The classic hazard - somebody else had been using the machine and hadn't finished setting it up. It stuck in the workpiece and some broken bits went off down the dust extractor.
THE biggest hazard is easily avoided:
Just promise yourself never to have your fingers within say 10" of the cutters when switched on. If you find you can't do this then perhaps get rid of the machine.
Use push sticks like these but make copies from plywood. Plastic can shatter. Always use the same pattern and have 3 or 4 of them always lying around. Also use them with a TS as a matter of course every time. Once you are used to them you find they increase your dexterity and you feel clumsy without them. There are "clever" alternative designs offered every now and then. Ignore them!
Don't have the radio etc on so you can hear if the machine is on or off.

 

[CaptainBarnacles]

Wise words Jacob. Thanks.

I have a couple of plastic push sticks which I tend to use only if I'm cutting small stock and theres a chance of having my fingers too near the blade for comfort. I'll give it a try using push sticks for every cut and see if I can maintain a decent level of precision with them. I'll also be making some plywood push sticks too.