So this Dovetailing business?...

[JobandKnock]

Not sure what they are for exactly

It's obvious, surely? You have them on a shelf, nicely polished, to impress your woodworking mates when they pop round

BTW how on earth do you hold a #3? Too small for my hands and always feel very uncomfortable

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

....BTW how on earth do you hold a #3? Too small for my hands and always feel very uncomfortable

A #3 is my preference in size for smoothing, and I have large hands.

I have two #3s. One is a Stanley that was my late FILs ...

No problem holding this. Fitted with a vintage Clifton iron (from the days of hammer prep).

The other is a LN, which I modified with #4 handles (the LN #3 handles are smaller) ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[JobandKnock]

Just don't find them comfortable, despite having had a #3 since my starting days (last of the wooden handled British ones). I'm happier with a #4 or a block plane TBH. #2s are worse for me - bought one, a Sargent VBM, hated it, sold it. Never been near a #1

 

[D_W]

two fingers in the plane - index and pinkie finger out (beware of pinkie over the side draping down into boards, though - ouch).

My hands are only about 3 1/2" - 3 5/8" wide at the knuckles, though, so I can use just about anything. But even with smaller hands - less grip rather than more, more push and rotate as part of the push (hand on hump of the handle and web up in the top notch).

 

[D_W]

Years ago Jim Kingshot pointed out an updated record plane as ugly. A plastic handle on a 044 as I recall.it was awful compared to the older o44.

I have always considered the Veritas planes well made but something just twisted my bloomers wrong. I couldn’t put a finger on it.

Many of the newer infill planes also have this awkward feeling.

what is your take on the bedrock or LN design where the plane body gets cut flat? The plane looks great but that is two curves separated by a flat line.

The A1 smoother has a ton of intersecting radi but has a single straight line leading into its tail.

In doing the pattern work for the Wadkin PK quadtants I did the initial work in autocad. While function dictated straight lines, there are many radi. Even the protractor was back flared into the body with at least two secondary radi.

I think the bailey look is better than bedrock - but at least the bedrock is committed to the division of the two curved bits and the flat part (they terminate in a crisp junction). I also think the round sided bedrock planes look better, but thanks to the scarcity of people willing to pay 10% more for a bedrock, people see the flat sides as "money" so to them it's a better look.

As far as the machine goes, my knowledge of design is only simple little things. Way too much there for me to have much thought - though I think the older cast machines look nice, and when you look older yet (like really old cast bandsaws), it's apparent that someone thought pretty hard about making the castings look nice to imply the quality of the machine (both in general lines and detail).

 

[D_W]

(as far as LN goes, I think that was asked - I think the original bedrocks are more attractive - the plain lever caps on the LN planes and the flat slab adjuster wheel are missing the mark compared to stanley versions. Like LV, though, they're a good company. Their designs are far more attractive to me and I'm sure the majority simply because they mostly copied established designs).

 

[D_W]

One more thing I never liked the look of in LN planes (though I do like the overall general look, and side profile, they look a little better than the original bedrocks as the termination of the sides into the flat top are absolutely crisp (the elements are separated well the more crisp the dividing spot).

Lie-Nielsen, WoodRiver and Stanley Planes - FineWoodworking

www.finewoodworking.com

The square-ish slots in the frog. I'd imagine that has something to do with casting or machining. The slots in a stanley look like church windows, no clue why the difference.

Does any of Lie Nielsen's customer base care about any of this? I doubt it. I've heard one other single person mention the slab industrial-supply looking wheel on the LN planes. I think the whole issue of making a nice segmented knurl or a stamped wheel with crisp lettering in it is beyond them, though. It's not important and the extra cost isn't something most of their customers would have a clue about.

(and yes, to the comment above - the old infills are all over the place. I've got an A13 panel plane (not a common plane). It is a little bland, but a little less so than the smoother version - also have one of those. The real sin of the panel plane is it's gentleman's weight - almost 9 pounds at 15 1/2 inches long and no professional user would tolerate it for long - but forums are filled with people who assert the weight is an advantage and "they're a big guy who likes a heavy plane"....(and they plane something 4 minutes per month)).

The style of the norris 2, some of the mathieson coffin infills and handled curved side infills, etc, just wonderful. They are also nice users if you can find them in good shape, and attractive as long as the handle and front bun haven't been cracked by dropping).

 

[Spectric]

Actually the only thing about "systainers" that irks me is the name and the hint of daft gadgetry.

Is that gadgetry the green twist knob that likes to come off, it is really cheap and nasty. It also shows how competition can control prices because the green / off white boxes are about the same price as everyone elses boxes even though the inserts are made for a given tool and festool is not milking it.

Yes having tools in boxes will make site work easier, but I would still prefer a decent "mate" that can do all the lugging but what is odd is when you see you tube videos and the guy has wall to wall festool boxes, ok it is neat and tidy but having to keep getting the right box out must be a real pain unless it is ordamental and or he is one of those posers or influencer types.

 

[D_W]

Is that gadgetry the green twist knob that likes to come off, it is really cheap and nasty. It also shows how competition can control prices because the green / off white boxes are about the same price as everyone elses boxes even though the inserts are made for a given tool and festool is not milking it.

Yes having tools in boxes will make site work easier, but I would still prefer a decent "mate" that can do all the lugging but what is odd is when you see you tube videos and the guy has wall to wall festool boxes, ok it is neat and tidy but having to keep getting the right box out must be a real pain unless it is ordamental and or he is one of those posers or influencer types.

My lazy bone sees the same thing as you're describing. The same is true of hand tools stacked in racks where you have to move other tools to get them and there is nary a stray tool out. There are a few people who will work like that (one tool out at a time), but I can't imagine building anything complicated and doing that. Lifting "systainers" off of other "systainers" in a static shop to get to a tool -no thanks. I guess it's kind of like a wall of marshall amplifiers behind a band, though - looks great to a new viewer (I think most modern concerts run direct, so when that wall is present - it's a dummy - just like the presenters with 40 systainers stacked tight).

 

[JobandKnock]

... to keep getting the right box out must be a real pain unless it is ordamental and or he is one of those posers or influencer types.

That describes at least some of the people I know who own Festools (and almost everyone I know who owns Mafells). The rest of us are just OCD!

The ones who worry me slightly more are the guys who have their van fitted out with front to back Vantainers (matching fitted racking). There is something seriously creepy about that (only saying it because I haven't got one - yet)

If you have enough Systainers you can build a couple of stacks, plonk a couple of scaff boards on top - and you have a great tea bench

Realistically they are a site accessory which is useful for transporting and protecting your tools atr start and end of day, and in the van. Not really much use in a shop. Festool did at one time offer tools in cartons at a lower price, Don't know if they still do

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

What saddens me is when I see offered for sale a hand tool (could be power, but it is the hand tools especially) where the advert runs something like "Original packaging - never opened" or "unused" ... and the tool is several years old.

Many, it seems, purchase premium tools and set them aside to use when they retire. And never get to use them ... either because they lose interest in the new hobby, or because they shuffle off the mortal coil before they get the chance.

I have purchased some very nice tools from deceased estates with a significant discount, because the family just want to get rid of the tools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[jcassidy]

Everyone stop the bus.

If only I had this, my dovetails would be perfectly effortless every time.
Bridge City Tool Works Multi Tool MT-1

It costs a bomb so it must be true?

 

[paulrbarnard]

Everyone stop the bus.

If only I had this, my dovetails would be perfectly effortless every time.
Bridge City Tool Works Multi Tool MT-1

It costs a bomb so it must be true?

Unused. Says it all really

 

[D_W]

Everyone stop the bus.

If only I had this, my dovetails would be perfectly effortless every time.
Bridge City Tool Works Multi Tool MT-1

It costs a bomb so it must be true?

Bridge city tools are kind of an escapist thing. I'm sure some use them, though it seems that those that are used are versions of tools that aren't unusual (squares, japanese saws, etc.). The rest is a combination of something for something (vs. nothing), as "this is something that will do a job that I fear in exchange for something else - a lot of money".

On a forum in the US, someone's spouse died (not a forum member) and one of the forum members purchased estates and distributed the tools for profit. He said the guy had one of everything from BC from the start (years ago before it was just harvey tools distributed for double the price in the US) - unused, and then one other copy that he used.

The fact that all of them were dumped to a dealer in a lot lets you know that they were sold for a song - typical here for large lot offers are something like 20% of individual value - it's a pain to unload hundreds of individual things and nobody else really wants the lot.

There are other escapist tools, and if someone just gets tons of satisfaction buying tools they never use but imagining they could, it's their business and not mine. It's not only tools, of course - one of the easiest guitars to buy in perfect condition is collings. They're played by a few people and curated by most. I've had 8 - when I notice I'm curating them or don't have a plan to build a version of one in the future (or got what I want out of them), then I sell. I've literally come across one desirable guitar that had any substantial dinging/marking on it. The rest were perfect and one of the reasons I sold them was because the first nick you get in one is several hundred dollars. The last one that I got (and have now) was one that someone else nicked.

 

[Jacob]

Unused. Says it all really

Unused, probably because really difficult to use, especially if you are trying to use several angles on the one job. In other words - expensive gadget to sell to geeks who know no better
Much easier with a handful - I've got 4 or 5 sliding bevels and about a dozen marking gauges, just the ordinary beech type. Often a good idea to have them ready, set unaltered through the whole job, in case of revisions/omissions etc

 

[Fred48]

Sorry for the delay in posting photographs of my dovetail templates. Moving house is rather busy.

The inspiration for what I call my ‘dovetail square’ came from attending a dovetailing course with David Charlesworth over 20 years ago.

On the course, we used the bandsaw to cut the ‘tails’. Having transferred the shape of the ‘tails’ onto the ‘pins’ components, we then used a metal template that David designed, with a knife to mark the vertical lines (see below)

Here is a front view of my ‘dovetail square’

A rearview of my 'dovetail square’

A view from the bottom

What part of the dovetail joint do I use the ‘dovetail square’ for?

Marking the lines as illustrated below for the tails

And the vertical lines on the ‘pin’ components

At some point, I decided I wanted to make small boxes with miniature dovetails using hand tools.

To enable me to do that I needed to make a template to mark the ‘slope of the tails’.

Various views of the template.

Why is there a rebate at the side of the steel rule?

To allow a clear view of the knife line on the end grain when marking a knife line on the adjacent surface.

 

[TRITON]

Did they use them in the good old days? Do they turn up in old tool collections or catalogues?

Just because they havent been seen isnt an indication that cabinet makers of the past didn't fashion something themselves to use as a guide for accurate repeatability of their cuts. Given what we do is it too far a stretch of the imagination that they didn't do it also.

A small dovetail guide made of a scrap of wood would be easy to construct

 

[Jacob]

Just because they havent been seen isnt an indication that cabinet makers of the past didn't fashion something themselves to use as a guide for accurate repeatability of their cuts. Given what we do is it too far a stretch of the imagination that they didn't do it also.

A small dovetail guide made of a scrap of wood would be easy to construct

Well yes and there must have been many purpose made aids which get passed by unidentified and are forgotten. I do it often; make a little guide or whatever then a year later scratch my head wondering what it was for.
But DTs were big business with thousands being cut regularly. Guides are conspicuous by their absence!
Obvious why; with practice "accurate repeatability' is possible by eye, and even if not the sliding bevel makes a better tool for the job.

 

[TRITON]

First dovetailing machine was patented in about 1833. It seems odd to surmise that everything prior to that was by eye. Clearly inroads were being made and thoughts of a accurate system were being conceived long before it actually got to the design phase.

I mean, how far do we want to go back :? 1833 is pretty far back to say cabinet makers of the early nineteenth century were already moving away from handcut into mass production.
I think its been noted that the first handcut dovetails in furniture were about the mid 18th century
This appear to be less than a hundred years. Clearly they were making repeatable joints during that time for them to eventually arrive at a machine to do it for them.

 

[Jacob]

First dovetailing machine was patented in about 1833. It seems odd to surmise that everything prior to that was by eye.

By eye, with/without dividers, sliding bevels etc. Not by machine - they hadn't been invented

Clearly inroads were being made and thoughts of a accurate system were being conceived long before it actually got to the design phase.

I mean, how far do we want to go back :? 1833 is pretty far back to say cabinet makers of the early nineteenth century were already moving away from handcut into mass production.
I think its been noted that the first handcut dovetails in furniture were about the mid 18th century
This appear to be less than a hundred years. Clearly they were making repeatable joints during that time for them to eventually arrive at a machine to do it for them.

We are talking about hand cut DTs.
The first DTs would be prehistoric - it's a simple and highly functional joint, not a recent 18C discovery!