Should you speak the truth?

[Lons]

Yet another thread that's somehow morphed into politics and heading down the same route as those that went before.

 

[Jacob]

Yet another thread that's somehow morphed into politics and heading down the same route as those that went before.

Not my fault I didn't say a word!
No need to - seems to be a consensus on failure of leadership etc.
You are entitled to defend Johnson if you must but trying to stop people talking about issues isn't the same thing at all.

 

[D_W]

Was there any real leadership, I think in the face of the pandemic they just fell apart and run around like lost sheep, that is why I think that we need a government body made up of all the right people, probably cross party that takes full control when this sort of emergency arises and can act fast without all the political bickering and discussion. Ok some would view them as a dictatorship but that is what is needed in an emergency like a pandemic, but will we learn anything from this, no.

First, no fan of politics - this is more of an observation of reality, and not for or against one or the other.

But let's be realistic about what was going on - businesses were fighting for the ability to survive and there wasn't clear direction on what and how much relief would be provided. If the entire world had locked down and the disease had kind of just gone away, we'd be hearing endless nonsense about how they ruined peoples' lives by causing their businesses to go under.

It's driving by looking through the rearview mirror at this point - everyone should stop it. It wasn't really even that long ago that we knew whether or not we'd have a vaccine.

And the whole stupid hand washing thing - don't get me started on that. Or telling people that it would send a bad message if they wore n95 masks in public, because they should only be kept for front line workers.

We all get very good at solving problems and pointing fingers after the fact.

 

[D_W]

Totally agree, it was hopeless last year. But I do think they have got things together this year - which is leadership in its way. Not the strong Churchill, Blair, Thatcher or Lloyd-George type of muscular leadership we have had in past crises, but a lot better, maybe Callahan-lite??. I'm trying to think of weaker leadership in our history than the performance last summer - King John maybe.

point us to a large country with any level of freedom that has a lot of foreign traffic to and through, and where we'd say there has been great leadership through covid. There must be a unicorn somewhere that locked every single person down, everyone tolerated it, and that vaccinated the entire population before anyone else.

 

[Lons]

Not my fault I didn't say a word!
No need to - seems to be a consensus on failure of leadership etc.
You are entitled to defend Johnson if you must but trying to stop people talking about issues isn't the same thing at all.

1. I never accused YOU of saying anything, though you have now.
2. Consensus is more likely that the whole lot across all parties have their noses in the trough.
3. Never once have I defended Johnson, I dislike him as much as I did your "yesterday man" best mate.
4. I haven't tried to stop anyone talking about issues. I made a comment that this has morphed into a politics thread yet again. It has - fact!

Any betting person on here would put money on this going down the same route as the others and eventually being locked. There's a reason that politics is (allegedly) a banned subject on forums like this, maybe it's time the rule was either enforced or thrown out. There are plenty of political forums out there for anyone who wants an argument.

 

[Daniel2]

There's no obligation to read, or participate in, a thread which doesn't please us.

 

[AJB Temple]

There's no obligation to read, or participate in, a thread which doesn't please us.

I surmise that is not the reason why politics etc are not allowed. No one ever changes their mind as a result of "debate" on forums, but finger pointing and name calling escalate. Some people enjoy argument and baiting. This all usually taints forums as the personal enmity spreads into other areas. In the end it just wastes moderator time and puts a lot of people off participating in the workshop sections.

 

[Daniel2]

I surmise that is not the reason why politics etc are not allowed. No one ever changes their mind as a result of "debate" on forums, but finger pointing and name calling escalate. Some people enjoy argument and baiting. This all usually taints forums as the personal enmity spreads into other areas. In the end it just wastes moderator time and puts a lot of people off participating in the workshop sections.

I never have been very good at seeing a wider picture
You give a good explanation.

 

[Jacob]

I surmise that is not the reason why politics etc are not allowed. No one ever changes their mind as a result of "debate" on forums,

They might or might not but they do get better informed if they want to. I find myself googling all sorts of things which I was unsure about.
I find it interesting, not least because it's a variegated bunch of people with all sorts of opinions; more interesting than talking to people who agree with everything you say!

but finger pointing and name calling escalate.

yes well that's where it becomes tedious, for the mods especially. Not that difficult though to put it down.

Some people enjoy argument and baiting.

Takes all sorts! Can be done in a good natured, grown up and civilised way

This all usually taints forums as the personal enmity spreads into other areas. ....

It need not. Anyway people who get agitated and feel threatened probably need a bit of healthy exposure to other views. And there is a good deal of simple information exchange involved

 

[Peterm1000]

Travel to Spain has never been banned. It wasn't banned last year and it isn't banned now. There are and have always been a set of reasons why travel is allowed. Most people won't be able to comply with those reasons but if you own a place in Spain its very possible that you have been allowed to travel all last year and all this year. This is why Bojo's Dad could travel - perfectly legally.

Of course it would have been safer for the person to stay at home but we have all been leaving home for a variety of reasons and all taking a certain level of risk when we do.

 

[RobinBHM]

Travel to Spain has never been banned. It wasn't banned last year and it isn't banned now. There are and have always been a set of reasons why travel is allowed. Most people won't be able to comply with those reasons but if you own a place in Spain its very possible that you have been allowed to travel all last year and all this year. This is why Bojo's Dad could travel - perfectly legally.

Of course it would have been safer for the person to stay at home but we have all been leaving home for a variety of reasons and all taking a certain level of risk when we do.

I didn't realise the OPs mate was Bojo's dad

 

[TominDales]

Sorry, my apologies for sparking this off.
I was trying to make the point that, for a consensus on what is socially acceptable, requires a clear & consistent message that is constantly re-enforced by the all in government - at all levels ie national and local - and of whatever country or party as a pre-condition.
I believe we have those conditions at the moment, which is a good thing and will allow a social consensus to build up on what is quite a complex issue. Its a good thing as it will save lives. Making that point, seemed a bit incongruous as last year we did not have those conditions, so the jokes at BJ's expense for the summers chaos was meant to acknowledge the temporal contradiction and be humorous - but probably ill-considered, I haven't been on this forum for long, so not that aware of the mine-field. Mia culpa

 

[D_W]

When the government starts to define what's socially acceptable and what's not and it gets really rigid, then you have China.

That doesn't mean that people who did selfish things weren't weenies, but I'd prefer a society where you don't get things like "Social credit" scores that prevent you from free movement.

The problem with "all in one way" type groups is that you will find that quite often, you don't enjoy their all in one way, and they foster a group of tattle tales (this is actually common in Amish societies - where a large segment of the population particularly enjoys telling on people - and not for positive reasons).

 

[Jacob]

Sorry, my apologies for sparking this off.
I was trying to make the point that, for a consensus on what is socially acceptable, requires a clear & consistent message that is constantly re-enforced by the all in government - at all levels ie national and local - and of whatever country or party as a pre-condition.
I believe we have those conditions at the moment, which is a good thing and will allow a social consensus to build up on what is quite a complex issue. Its a good thing as it will save lives. Making that point, seemed a bit incongruous as last year we did not have those conditions, so the jokes at BJ's expense for the summers chaos was meant to acknowledge the temporal contradiction and be humorous - but probably ill-considered, I haven't been on this forum for long, so not that aware of the mine-field. Mia culpa

The mine field is out there - we just talk about it here!
Information exchange/discussion, essential to the democratic process.

 

[rafezetter]

A good friend is one that can take you calling them a dick if they are being a dick.

On the subject of vaccines I am all for letting people choose whether to get a vaccine, just as I am all for people choosing whether to do business with or see people who haven't for non medical reasons.

It'll be moot anyway, as soon as the likes of Spain or France say you can't come here without a vaccine the amount of holdouts that are worried about Bill Gates controlling them with 5g signals will dissipate becase they'll want to go on holiday.

I was going to basically say the same but you beat me to it, especially the first part. I've been helping a friend of 35 years get through a very messy and difficult situation with his clearly unreasonable wife, by giving him my couch to sleep on for almost 11 months (so far) as well as some very frank and honest discussions, with me basically calling her a looner (good reason, I said it was messy), She's his wife and he loves her, so he doesn't like it, but we are still friends, because he clearly understands his welfare is my driving motivation (especially after he attempted suicide)

Sometimes the only way to help someone be a better person is to tell them they are being a dick (or that thier wife is a manipulative cow whom, now she's got 2 babies, 2yrs old and 6 months who incedentally kicked him out BEFORE the second was even born, is after the house she made him buy).

Now I know why I don't have any.

I'm sure you do Lons,

If everyone broke friendships with everyone who broke the Covid rules, a lot of people would have no friends...

Less chance of contamination then, works for me - Too many new variants now, and a-holes too eager to do non ESSENTIAL travel without giving consideration to consequences.

 

[Peterm1000]

Sure - tell someone what you think. I think that's fine. But then telling them that unless they agree with you, they can't be your friend - that doesn't sound very tolerant to me.

 

[Amateur]

They might or might not but they do get better informed if they want to. I find myself googling all sorts of things which I was unsure about.
I find it interesting, not least because it's a variegated bunch of people with all sorts of opinions; more interesting than talking to people who agree with everything you say! yes well that's where it becomes tedious, for the mods especially. Not that difficult though to put it down.Takes all sorts! Can be done in a good natured, grown up and civilised way
It need not. Anyway people who get agitated and feel threatened probably need a bit of healthy exposure to other views. And there is a good deal of simple information exchange involved

I very nearly believed, you believed what you wrote then