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Adam

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Should the magazines...... (see bottom)

Altendorf, F45 = 1
Axminster, BTS10PP = 1
Blackspur, unknown = 1
Charnwood, W615 = 1
Clarke, cts 10plm = 1
Delta, 26-525 = 1
Delta, 36-451 = 1
Delta, UNISAW = 1
Elektra Beckum, PKF 255 V8 = 2
Elekra Beckum, PK255 = 2
Elekra Beckum, PK200 = 1
Ferm, FZT 250 = 4
Ferm, FZB 720 = 1
Kity, 1619 = 1
Kity, 619 = 1
Kity, 419 = 3
Maxi, 26 = 1
Performance Power, FMTC10TS = 1
Record, Select RSTS12 = 1
Rexon, BT2500A = 1
Ridgid, TS 2424 = 1
Sheppach, TS4010 = 2
Scheppach, TS2500 = 3
Scheppach, TS2000 = 2


I'm interested in how the Magazines resolve the inevitable trade-off, between advertisers and independent tool reviews.

Particularly I am focusing on Record, (and hence why I include the poll results above). Record hardly get a mention as the TS that people on this forum use, yet Record advertise very heavily in magazines - so someone must be buying them. Given the cost of advertising, say, £2K/page? It is a significant contributor to the cost of producing a magazine. Should we be paying more for our magazines, to allow them to be more independent, or should we continue to (as I do currently) ignore the always "favourable-to-OK" reviews Record seem to get, despite me NEVER having heard a single positive comment on them. [I don't particularly want to start a Record bashing thread here], they just happen to be the unlucky ones who advertise alot! Also I'm interested to know if it's true that to be a Record Distributor, you have to set aside a guarenteed amount of your sales premises to their stock? (Perhaps our friends at NWW - Ralph Laughton? and GWW - Andy King - could add their thoughts?) - not sure if the above names are correct or not!!!

Most of the people here are pretty informed, we ask lots of questions and get lots of feedback about which machines are "good". The results above show Record do not have a strong following from users on this website - however as a "noobie" I was tempted by the Record advertising and Demonstrations I saw. (Actually ALF it was you that put me off - and it's you with the Record Maxi isn't it?). So had I been slightly less proactive in reading up about the different manufacturers, I would probably have bought a Record, as a result of magazine reviews etc. If the magazines had been more critical (or I felt their reviews to be truly independent) I would have been inclined, initially to research more and find alternatives. Whilst I didn't take the 'record' route, I'm sure many others will - and I don't see many people either recommending, nor purchasing them based on above figures?

Open to the floor!

Adam
 

Newbie_Neil

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Hi Adam

Perhaps people who bought the Record, based on magazine reviews, are too embarrassed to post their vote. It is a real problem particularly if you don't find this site until AFTER making the purchase/s.

For the record, sorry about the pun, I include myself in the above. :oops:

You might remember that I was very keen for Andy King to spell out clearly for new readers exactly how magazines rated items in tests. This is not an attack on GWW, in fact AK/GWW have been very good. It was a suggestion that I made and Andy, space and editor permitting, has included something.

Cheers
Neil
 

Philly

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Adam,
I am the "one" who bought a record table saw-I have had it a couple of years now and, all things considered, I am very pleased with it. I also have a Record dust extractor and Record router table.
The purchases I have made have not been down to their advertising but due to research and the price/features ratio. I wouldn't say Record gear is mediocre, especially as most products are sourced from around the world and badged, as a lot of "manufacturors" do.
As regards Record dealer policies, I have no idea.
And the fact that not a lot of people on this forum don't seem to use Record is probably due to the fact that not all woodworkers waste as much time as us on the computer when we should be in the shop! :D
regards,
Philly
 

sawdustalley

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I have never used any record stuff however, I heard that the blue (select) stuff is like ferm/draper/JCB/powerdevil (Cheap imports from china)

However, I remember someone saying the green record power stuff is of very good quality.

Just thought I would point out also, that the other big spenders are Trend, Axminster, Machine mart and also see D&M in most mags.
 

Alf

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Oh deary me... Before we go any further, everyone seems to remember how much I don't like the Maxi (and I still don't btw), but I'm sure I've mentioned how good the Record drill stand is. Haven't I? :? Okay, so you can get a whole drill press for less money these days, but it's really pretty good. In other words, Record stuff is not necessarily a pile of poo.

On the other hand I've had the feeling for years that Record has been free-wheeling just a little bit, relying on past glories (not the only ones either). Perhaps there's an element of fond memories of machines of their youth that clouds reviewers' opinions a wee bit? And the novelty of having anything at all from a British based company probably... :shock: As to why Record continue to sell okay? Well you put your finger on it; if every newbie buys one Record machine, that's an awful lot of sales. Oh, and the turning fraternity still seem to love 'em.

Yes, it is true that to be listed as a "Record Stockist" you have to have a set number of their products. At least it certainly was pre-management buy-out. I've had that straight from the horses mouth; one of said stockists. Rumour has it that a dealer in Cornwall went under in an attempt to offer the customer as wide a choice of machinery to choose from as possible, partly due to this policy (I pressume other manufacturers must have a similar one too?), which lead to over-stocking and inevitable bankcruptcy. And those with long memories will recall what happened to poor old Woodcut when that was on the cards... :(

So are magazine reviews totally unbiased? Of course not. No reviewer wants to hear "Sorry, one of our main advertisers has jumped ship so we can't afford to pay your wages any more" do they? :? What you need is reviewers with private incomes... :lol: But then neither are the opinions from members here without some bias, if you don't mind me saying so. On the one hand, if you'd paid a big wad you're naturally reluctant to admit you were "done". Not to mention the fact that you must have chosen that machine in the first place, so you look a bit of a pillock (yes, I am a bit of a pillock. Hence I don't mind heaping scorn on the Maxi :wink: ) On the other, if you've had a bad experience it'll probably colour your view of that manufacturer's products regardless of how good they may be. Sometimes that bad view isn't even because of the product anyway, but other factors.

I think the internet has revolutionised how you can go about making informed buying decisions, but you do need to log on with the required bag of salt by your side, ready to apply as appropriate. :wink: But really the only vaguely reliable way is to canvas as many opinions as possible, read up until your eyes boss, go and look at what you think you want to get, and then cross your fingers and hope for the best. I would say "works for me", but apparently it doesn't... :wink:

Cheers, Alf

P.S. Who's the Normite-jealousy-provoking owner of a Unisaw then? Has Mr Free been in? :lol:

P.P.S. All of the above written before reading any of the other replies btw.
 

Newbie_Neil

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Hi Alf

Alf":17ikzzsc said:
Who's the Normite-jealousy-provoking owner of a Unisaw then? Has Mr Free been in? :lol:
Sorry to disappoint you, but it is Keystone based in the good 'ol US of A.

Now, what else would you buy over there :?: :roll:

Cheers
Neil
 

woodshavings

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sawdustalley said:
I have never used any record stuff however, I heard that the blue (select) stuff is like ferm/draper/JCB/powerdevil (Cheap imports from china)

Just for the "RECORD" I have a RSBS10 Blue Bandsaw. It has proper roller guide bearings, resaws 110 mm Oak and is certainly not like Ferm/PowerDevil cheapo China imports. (did change the blade for dura edge though! :wink: )

I also have a Maxi 26 ... I would prefer separates but haven't room. The Maxi's not perfect but compared to a £6000 Startrite - good value and performs well providing you take care with the fence setting! :)

John
 
A

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Hi all,

I have a Record mortiser, probably the only piece of "proper" kit that i own with all the saws, sanders, drills, etc etc coming from the major diy sheds.

While i think that the quality of the record mortiser is fine (it weighs a ton)its a swine to set up with no parallel fence and poor depth gauge.

I always take the reviews with a pinch of salt, reviews from other users are far more meaningful.


Aidan
 

CYC

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Aidan, I must have the same morticer you have. It's really heavy, sounds lovely but the fence it not great to setup. Have you come up with a jig to replace it. I plan to scratch my head to make one.
I wouldn't say this is a brilliant piece of kit, but it's not the worth either. Now that I have used it, I think I wouldn't buy the same again though.

First I will build this base I have posted the 3D pictures of. Unfortunately my time lately is taken away from woodworking :(
 

Adam

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I don't know, I put a clause in especially saying this is not a "Record" bashing thread, and before you know it, it's getting all defensive :? :oops: :p :x :shock: :D :) :( :eek: :lol:
 
A

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No jig system produced yet, its just one of those jobs i've been meaning to do for ages :D

Just watching Mr free cut his joints with the trend jig for the router and i'm a little jealous...........now where's me credit card gone :D :D

No No i must resist.

Aidan
 

Newbie_Neil

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Hi Aidan

Aidan":3gqvsvag said:
Just watching Mr free cut his joints with the trend jig for the router and i'm a little jealous...........now where's me credit card gone :D :D
Sales of the Trend Mortice and Tenon Jig have increased by 5,000% since the Great British Woodshop started on H & L. Perhaps I can also share with you the fact that the Trend Mortice and Tenon Jig is now outselling the Rat by 548:1.

All of these figures have been independently verified by a company called Trend Independent Verifications Limited.

You should rush out and buy the Trend Morice and Tenon Jig whilst stocks last. :wink:

Cheers
Neil
 

CYC

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Aidan, I think the morticer we have is an excellent tool, well at least once we figure out a better fence. I wouldn't spend the money to get a replacement.
Unless.... you have like Neil one router for each cutter you possess, hahaha sorry neil I couldn't resist. :twisted:

Seriously, if you saw David using a dedicated morticer you wouldn't think of getting the Trend jig. This marketing is working very well! Too well.
 
A

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CYC, ummmm, one router for each cutter, ummmm

I may have to take the 5th on that one :D :D

Actually i only have 4, two 1/2" and two 1/4" but ya never know when one will bust, and one is in the table.............its my excuse and i'm sticking to it!!!

No plans really to get the Trend, although it does look good, the overwhelming urge to spend has passed until next Wednesday. I must have a go at some kind of fence for the Record.

What i might get tho' is a propelling pencil........... not huge cash, much thinner lead than the things im using, more accurate, and no need to go out and buy one of those sharpener gizmos that fit in the end of ya cordless.


Aidan.
 

Newbie_Neil

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Hi Aidan

As we seem to have got onto the subject of M&T jigs, I would just like to say that the VERY BEST M&T jig is the Leigh.

It is excellent and comes complete with plenty of adjustment. I have seen it demonstrated twice now and both times I went away very impressed.

If I only had the money. :wink:

Cheers
Neil
 

Adam

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>As we seem to have got onto the subject of M&T jigs, I would just like to say that the VERY BEST M&T jig is the Leigh.

And the VERY BEST jointing machine, which happens to do M&T, even on angled timbers (which makes it arguably more versatile - and perhaps better) is the 'Rat!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry Neil, couldn't resist after your bold statement!!!!

I think Neil is on commision. I feel obliged to offer a alternative view. :eek: :shock: Godfrey, 10% on all sales will do nicely.
:!: :!:

Adam
 

Newbie_Neil

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Hi Adam

asleitch":c4w9e22n said:
And the VERY BEST jointing machine, which happens to do M&T, even on angled timbers (which makes it arguably more versatile - and perhaps better) is the 'Rat!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm sorry, but the comment I made was specifically about M&T jigs and as such I didn't include the Rat. But, for the record both the Trend and the Leigh will cut an angled M&T. :wink:

Newbie_Neil":c4w9e22n said:
I would just like to say that the VERY BEST M&T jig is the Leigh.
I stand by this quote 100%. The Leigh jig is just fabulous. It knocks spots off both the Trend and the Rat when it comes to producing M&T's. :D :D

It really is that good. Trust me, I'm a wood butcher!!! :wink:

Cheers
Neil
 

frank

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by the way the woodbutcher from wales sells s/hand cars (but i believe him honest ) :shock:

gill move over in that bunker and let me in


frank
 

Adam

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Ahh Neil,

You missed it, I said "the VERY BEST jointing machine" :!: :!: :!: :shock: :shock: :D :D :lol: :lol: :wink: :roll:

you said, "M&T jigs"

>"The Leigh jig is just fabulous. "

OK, I'm not denying it!

>It knocks spots off both the Trend and the Rat when it comes to producing M&T's. It really is that good.

Why?, I've looked at the reviews and can't see anything to make me think it's "better" - what specifically is better? I am interested, as clearly I have taken the 'Rat route, but am always interested in alternatives, or clever ideas that could be also adapted for the 'Rat.
I am going to have to do a back-to-back comparison at this rate. :p

>It knocks spots off both the Trend and the Rat when it comes to producing M&T's. It really is that good.

Thats what I said about the woodrat, as I made a sliding dovetail in <10minutes. :wink:

>But, for the record both the Trend and the Leigh will cut an angled M&T.

OK, within limits, as they have limited width and height restrictions. What about compound angled mortice and tenon? :wink: . Oh yes, the 'Rat can do it, (I'll admit you would have to make a simple wedge for the angle in one direction, but the compound bit would be easy.)

Adam
 

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