sharpening / ProEdge / Trizact question

[gog64]

Hopefully this is quick question and someone more experienced with sharpening turning tools on the Sorby ProEdge can point me in the right direction!

I normally sharpen on my ProEdge with a 120g ceramic belt. That gives a reasonable edge, but I find that it's greatly improved if I then hone it with a 600g diamond hone. The trouble with that is it only "lasts" a short time and I find myself frequently touching up the edge to keep it cutting well.

As I enjoy turning and dislike sharpening, I looked for a belt that would give me a better edge than the 120g ceramic. I thought that I was on to a winner with the Trizact 1200g, which seems ideal for the job from the description, so I bought one. However, on a sharp tool, all the Trizact 1200g seems to do is heat up the metal! If anything, it seems to take the edge OFF of a tool sharpened with 120g ceramic and make it blunter. There is no "direction arrow" on the Trizact belt, so I've tried it both ways just in case, with the exact same results.

Any ideas what am I doing wrong?

 

[Jacob]

.... I find myself frequently touching up the edge to keep it cutting well.

That is how you keep a sharp edge, whatever method you apply. There is no method by which you can sharpen to produce a longer lasting edge, The sharper the edge the sooner it blunts - it's about striking a happy medium

As I enjoy turning and dislike sharpening, .....

Any ideas what am I doing wrong?

Learn to love sharpening.
Not being facetious here - I like sharpening! I use 2 or 3 grades of oil stone , freehand, and sometimes "strop" on leather, or on mdf + Autosol or similar.
A little and often - as you have discovered, so you are getting there!
PS I tried Trizact and got same result - blued edges. I sold my Proedge.
PPS I use a sanding disc on my lathe. Currently 100 grit stuck to a MFC disc on the outboard end of the spindle. It seems to be all I need for turning.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Of all the excellent, semi pro and pro turners I knew in a club of seventy or eighty members, not one of them ever used an oilstone, diamond plate or any other hone regularly, the tool was used off the grindstone 99.9% of the time. Most of them never honed anything. The wheels were probably 180 grit. Once in a while I touch up a skew with a diamond plate, but that's it.

 

[Jacob]

Of all the excellent, semi pro and pro turners I knew in a club of seventy or eighty members, not one of them ever used an oilstone, diamond plate or any other hone regularly, the tool was used off the grindstone 99.9% of the time. Most of them never honed anything. The wheels were probably 180 grit. Once in a while I touch up a skew with a diamond plate, but that's it.

Nor me for turning though I occasionally do a quick freshen of an edge on a stone.

 

[gog64]

OK, sorry my fault, re-reading my post I wasn't clear enough.

I use the Sorby ProEdge with jigs. I shape with the 60g belt and sharpen with the 120g. I KNOW I can get the tools sharper by hand, but I'd rather just have them sharper off the linisher if possible. I just want to know whether OTHER PROEDGE USERS sharpen with the 120g, or is there something better?

I'm sure that other sharpening systems are great, but my question is really a specific one about how to get the best out of my ProEdge, it's NOT a general sharpening question. Sorry!

 

[Paul Hannaby]

This may sound counterintuitive but if you want your edge to last longer, don't hone it. Use it straight off the stone / coarse belt.
I have a bench grinder which I use to sharpen my turning tools, I also have a wetstone grinder which has a finer grade stone. If I sharpen with the wetstone I get a sharper edge but it doesn't last as long.

If you think about it, when sharpening with any abrasive, you are putting score marks in the surface of the metal which are as wide as the grit particles. The finer the grit, the finer the score marks. transpose those score marks to the edge and you have what looks like serrations. With a coarser grit, the serrations are wider and deeper so in use, when you wear out the tip of the serration, you expose another part of it and maintain a workable cutting edge. With a finer grit, you use up the serrations faster because they are shorter so the edge becomes dull faster.

 

[Jacob]

OK, sorry my fault, re-reading my post I wasn't clear enough.

I use the Sorby ProEdge with jigs. I shape with the 60g belt and sharpen with the 120g. I KNOW I can get the tools sharper by hand, but I'd rather just have them sharper off the linisher if possible. I just want to know whether OTHER PROEDGE USERS sharpen with the 120g, or is there something better?

I'm sure that other sharpening systems are great, but my question is really a specific one about how to get the best out of my ProEdge, it's NOT a general sharpening question. Sorry!

Yes sorry I thought you were asking a general question at first - I got the best of my ProEdge by selling it!

 

[Linus]

I use the Sorby and I find the best edge I get with 120 ceramic.

 

[gog64]

This may sound counterintuitive but if you want your edge to last longer, don't hone it. Use it straight off the stone / coarse belt...

Hi Paul - that makes sense, thanks. I'm just making sure that I'm getting the best out of the ProEdge, but that explains why Sorby doesn't sell or make a grit >120g except for the AO (which is fairly useless for HSS). I do still wonder whether 180g would be a better compromise between edge sharpness and longevity, but as I can't find anyone who makes them in the right size, I'll never know! I think I just completely misunderstood using the Trizact, it maybe more of use for knife makers.

BTW - the Stubby is wonderful, I couldn't be happier. I've even made a few quite nice hollow forms on it so that it feels at home! I must get you over some time to see it in it's new home. All the best.

 

[Democritus]

gog64
Over the years, I have tried various sharpening methods; a
straightforward bench grinder, a Tormek system, and, finally, a Sorby ProEdge. I was never able to get a consistent sharpening angle on the bench grinder, my tools tending to end up with multi-faceted bevels. The Tormek was ok, but very slow and a bit messy. I know there is a bit of one-up manship about sharpening freehand on bench grinders ( if you can’t do it, you’re not a proper turner), but if there is an easier way to a) produce a sharp edge, and b) do it consistently, I see no reason not to use it. After all, getting sharp tools is not an end in itself, it’s purpose is to facilitate turning wood. Since buying the ProEdge, I have not looked back. In answer to your question, I use a 60grit belt to shape if needed, and then a diamond belt for ongoing sharpening. The diamond belt was expensive, but tools only need a few seconds on the belt to maintain a razor sharp edge.
Hope that helps.
D.

 

[Lakeburch]

I have the Sorby pro edge and found the 120 grit slightly too aggressive for gouges but for all other tools great, so probably my technique! I now use 240 and I'm getting a more consistent edge on the gouges but you do need to be a bit careful to avoid heating the steel too much.
I have spoken to a couple of people who have the diamond belt and swear by it, I'll see how long the 240 belts last then have a think.

 

[TRITON]

I know there is a bit of one-up manship about sharpening freehand on bench grinders ( if you can’t do it, you’re not a proper turner),

you actually get this nonsense in everything. I've as full on Emtb, a solid real mcCoy offroad mtb, but according to some im not a real mtber, because its an Emtb, not a manual mtb.

Sharpening is a means to an end. My previous trade was that as a butcher, which is obviously needing a razor sharp edge to work efficiently and quickly. We've used everything from oil stones to powered ceramic wheel grinders costing upwards of £800 or even chantry knife sharpeners costing 30 quid. The point is to easily and without spending any time at all, bring the edge up to a point it easily cuts the meat, and it really needs to have a very sharp and smooth edge in order to do so.
At no point have I ever come across someone who stated, you're not a real butcher because you're using a powered whetstone and not an india oil stone. The thought would be ludicrous

People who come up with that nonsense deserve to be laughed at. I would say thats the kind of thing amateurs come up with in order to elevate themselves.

As soon as I can I intend to get a pro edge. Looks to me a great bit of well thought out kit and not really too expensive, especially if you compare it against a couple of diamond stones at 100 quid each, and the rest. Its not too much more and does the job it is supposed to do, quickly and efficiently.

Im interested to know from owners what kind of lifespan you get out the belts, and have they tried any of the really fine 3000 grit belts

 

[TFrench]

Belts last ages as you only need to tickle the edge and its sharp again. I use 60g for heavy regrinding and a 120g for everyday sharpening. I do have some of the trizact belts, I use them for knives and occasionally for the skew if I'm taking super light finishing cuts.

 

[Chris152]

... on a sharp tool, all the Trizact 1200g seems to do is heat up the metal! If anything, it seems to take the edge OFF of a tool sharpened with 120g ceramic and make it blunter. There is no "direction arrow" on the Trizact belt, so I've tried it both ways just in case, with the exact same results.

Any ideas what am I doing wrong?

I've used a pro-edge for a few years for sharpening gouges with 120 grit, 60 for reshaping. Recently I bought Trizact belts through to 3000 for use on chisels and plane blades, but can't say I was impressed with the results. Rather than user error )) I put this down to the slight slack/ flex in the belts (less stiff than the 120 ceramic) creating a slight 'ripple' in the belt where the blade makes contact, taking the edge off. Maybe I can adjust the tension on the belt, I've not had a look.

 

[Lons]

I've had my Pro-edge for a number of years now and use nothing else for my turning tools, I have a variety of belts, cheaper brand than the original and mostly use 240g except when rarely reshaping the tool, belts last a long time and I keep the old ones for other tasks like shaping metal, sharpening masonary chisels, the odd axe blade and drill bits.
I also gave a grinder and Tormek T7 along with the usual hand methods, great for bench chisels but none of which are necessary or indeed beneficial for turning tools ino.

 

[RichardG]

I've used a pro-edge for a few years for sharpening gouges with 120 grit, 60 for reshaping. Recently I bought Trizact belts through to 3000 for use on chisels and plane blades, but can't say I was impressed with the results. Rather than user error )) I put this down to the slight slack/ flex in the belts (less stiff than the 120 ceramic) creating a slight 'ripple' in the belt where the blade makes contact, taking the edge off. Maybe I can adjust the tension on the belt, I've not had a look.

I have exactly the same issues as you, I now only use the ProEdge for the primary bevel on chisels and plane irons, then revert to diamond plate and honing for the secondary. I also had issues with the ProEdge not producing a flat grind on planes, never did get a decent answer from Robert Sorby on this.

Thread I started on the ProEdge Support Forums.

 

[scooby]

Another thing to look out on the pro edge is wear on the back plate (or platen as Sorby call it). This can cause the grind on wider chisels and plane irons to be slightly uneven.

 

[chaoticbob]

Hopefully this is quick question and someone more experienced with sharpening turning tools on the Sorby ProEdge can point me in the right direction!

I normally sharpen on my ProEdge with a 120g ceramic belt. That gives a reasonable edge, but I find that it's greatly improved if I then hone it with a 600g diamond hone. The trouble with that is it only "lasts" a short time and I find myself frequently touching up the edge to keep it cutting well., but

As I enjoy turning and dislike sharpening, I looked for a belt that would give me a better edge than the 120g ceramic. I thought that I was on to a winner with the Trizact 1200g, which seems ideal for the job from the description, so I bought one. However, on a sharp tool, all the Trizact 1200g seems to do is heat up the metal! If anything, it seems to take the edge OFF of a tool sharpened with 120g ceramic and make it blunter. There is no "direction arrow" on the Trizact belt, so I've tried it both ways just in case, with the exact same results.

Any ideas what am I doing wrong?

I'm only an occasional woodturner, but I use my ProEdge quite a lot for general sharpening/linishing. One thing you are doing wrong, which no-one seems to have commented on, is going from 120g to 1200g in one jump. All that does is polish the grooves left by the 120 (that's where the heat comes from) and possibly round over the edge, as you have noticed. If you want highly refined edge (the same goes for polishing metal) a rule of thumb is that you roughly double the grit size on each pass - so 120, 240, 600,1200 for example. Personally I go 120,240.Trizact A30, A16,A6 if I want a polished bevel and razor edge. But that would be crazy for woodwork! Cut throat razors perhaps.

I think the reason Trizacts don't have direction arrows is do do with the way the joint in the belt is made. Most belts use scarf joints which are prone to 'unpeel' if used the wrong way round. The arrows have nothing to do with the geometry of the grit. I'm pretty sure I read on the 3M website that you can use the belts either way, and I've yet to have one come unstuck.

It is certainly possible to 'blue' an edge using the ProEdge. For HSS tools this unlikely to be a problem - the steel will remain hard at that sort of temperature. For carbon steel I keep a jar of water by the machine, dip the edge, grind until steaming, dip, grind &c. It's pretty quick and automatic once you train yourself.

Having said all that, once you've established a good edge on a cutting tool it's much quicker and easier to give it a swipe on a stone when it dulls.

Bob.

 

[MikeO]

OK, sorry my fault, re-reading my post I wasn't clear enough.

I use the Sorby ProEdge with jigs. I shape with the 60g belt and sharpen with the 120g. I KNOW I can get the tools sharper by hand, but I'd rather just have them sharper off the linisher if possible. I just want to know whether OTHER PROEDGE USERS sharpen with the 120g, or is there something better?

I'm sure that other sharpening systems are great, but my question is really a specific one about how to get the best out of my ProEdge, it's NOT a general sharpening question. Sorry!

Mike Waldt on you tube uses 60 and 120 ceramic belts occasionally honing with a diamond file. I find once shaped sharpening takes seconds so little n often.

 

[Sideways]

Just throwing it out there. I watched a pro turner demonstrate how to turn a (10") bowl / plate. He had a Creusen grinder with him and touched up his gouge twice during the demo. It took only seconds, but the message was little but relatively often.