sharpening or what?

[MikeW]

all i was looking for was a suggestion that would enable a new guy to get moving relatively cheaply.

One cannot get more cheap than ignorance--and I don't mean that in a bad way.

I have a neighbor. His tool kit consists of the normal homeowner tools: hammers, a few chisels, a couple handsaws, jig and circular saws.

This has been fine for him for what he has needed to do. Lately, he tried to build some bookshelves. He became frustrated at both his tools and skills. So he comes and talks to me. I show him how to sharpen a chisel, clamp a piece of MDF to use as a guide for his saw on what he was cutting. How to layout his work. This will work for him just fine--until such times as he tries to make his equipment exceed his ability to use them or he attempts to do something beyond his skill or knowledge.

In other words, as (and if) he tries to do something more challenging using his tools in the state they are, it will frustrate him to the point of seeking how to either make them better, how to cut straighter, how to make better joints. It is then he will discover he has learned something--but not enough. That's when he will seek advice. Learn how to sharpen better, and most of all, he will learn how to think more clearly to achieve what it is he is attempting.

It is (neigh unto) impossible to pick up a tool, read all about it and know how to use it today as well as I will be able to tomorrow. Even if the "source" of such knowledge existed.

imo, there is a balance between knowledge and experience. Trying to learn too much before one begins can lead to frustration. Think of it as a child. My granddaughter could care less that I increased the rake angle on a small panel saw so it would be easier for her to rip with--and certainly wouldn't care that it happens to be 10 degrees. Not at this point in her life. All she wants to do is make something. When she attempts to cut a thick board at some point in the future with this saw, she'll wonder why it doesn't cut like before. That is when I will tell her to select another saw and why.

The same with sharpening. My neighbor sharpened his chisels with a very coarse stone. I showed him his supply of sandpaper could be put to use. He is tickled to death that his 220 grit sandpaper makes them so much sharper. He scoffed buying higher grit paper. But I bet he will on his next project. Because he is learning.

And to come full circle, his ignorance and level of desire has made his new hobby very inexpensive. As time goes by, his increased knowledge will fuel desire for better things and better ways of doing. He is learning.

Mike

 

[engineer one]

mike as usual your comments are perceptive and sensible.
but you neighbour is lucky to have you nearby and prepared to
guide him if he asks in a particular way, and then i guess does
not become an ass about things.

too many "experts" have no time, and or if they do give you time,
are very pedantic. "my way or no way".

obviously as your skill level improves, your desire for sharpening skills
increases, but even then you have to investigate and find a system which
works for you. "scary sharp" etc actually require that you have a flat
surface rather flatter than a piece of mdf, but you only learn this by asking.
so already you are using more than one piece of kit..

we seem to have moved on from an oilstone, not least because they are
not as successful long term as we would like. so the question was what and how to start, and how to move on to real sharpness whilst still finding time to make things which do what you want.

as an engineer i wonder about what you and we call sand paper.
when i read american magazines, they all seem to talk about silicon carbide paper for sharpening, but is that as easily available here (UK) in
the right grades. i have used emery because my background tells me it will produce a finer finish on the steel, so why do so many american writers prefer sand paper? is it just that emery has become more difficult to find (because we have so few engineering workshops in uk now)
or is there another reason?

paul :wink:

 

[MikeW]

...but you neighbour is lucky to have you nearby and prepared to guide him if he asks in a particular way, and then i guess does not become an ass about things.

You don't know my neighbor <g>. But we all have a neighbor to obtain advice from. Some of my neighbors are in the UK. Some in Australia, Canada. A couple even down the street. We have it so much easier than our forefathers--in some ways. Communication and information being one of them. This, I think, is both a blessing and curse.

But trust me, I ask a few people I know questions all the time. Over time, we meet people whom we in times of need seek out. As time goes by, we meet more people. Knowledge grows, new ideas are introduced. The internet has done wonders for asking questions and receiving answers.

...obviously as your skill level improves, your desire for sharpening skills increases, but even then you have to investigate and find a system which works for you. "scary sharp" etc actually require that you have a flat surface rather flatter than a piece of mdf, but you only learn this by asking. so already you are using more than one piece of kit.

Flat is an absolute. Absolutes are rarely practical in a real world. Ideals are just that. Something flatter than MDF is an ideal. Not a necessity. I've sharpened knives on river rock as sharp as I can get a plane blade--just not as polished.

I think perspective comes with experience. Most of what we strive for is an illusive ideal. Problems come from placing those ideals in absolutist terms.

...we seem to have moved on from an oilstone, not least because they are not as successful long term as we would like. so the question was what and how to start, and how to move on to real sharpness whilst still finding time to make things which do what you want.

Easy. Forget what it is you are trying to understand and go make something. Anything. Doesn't matter. As you go along, begin to apply what it is you do understand--and do it imperfectly. Oh I don't mean to sharpen "improperly" just to do so. I mean to just sharpen. Don't fret if there isn't a .5mm crown to the blade and that it is perfectly symetrical. Doesn't matter and never will. All due respect to Odate--but the crowning plate is elitist candy that will never truly be adopted by the craftsperson who makes Odate's own furniture.

Point is, if you have sandpaper (of any kind) or an oil stone, or as my neighbor, a round coarse stone such as is sold to campers to sharpen their axes, diamond plates, ceramic or waterstones. Who really cares? Just use it when the blade starts to make planning difficult or the finish is affected--or you simply need a break.

...as an engineer i wonder about what you and we call sand paper. when i read american magazines, they all seem to talk about silicon carbide paper for sharpening, but is that as easily available here (UK) in the right grades. i have used emery because my background tells me it will produce a finer finish on the steel, so why do so many american writers prefer sand paper? is it just that emery has become more difficult to find (because we have so few engineering workshops in uk now) or is there another reason?
paul :wink:

I think the reason that sandpaper has taken precedence over emory paper or even crocus cloth is sandpapers longevity and resistance of the abrasive particles to become dislodged. There is no doubt that emory paper has better abrasive properties in metal cutting. It is still available here and used in machine shops, jewelers, gunsmiths and I'm sure by many other individuals and trades.

In my own use, I found I cannot flatten an entire sole of a plane without going through several sheets. It is superior to other paper/cloth-backed abrasives, though, in polishing metal and I still use it for that occasionally. Sandpaper, on the other hand, while not possessing the cutting properties, does not breakdown or dislodge from the paper or cloth backing nearly as quickly. So while it takes longer, it is more economical.

My understanding of one reason why emory paper possesses better metal cutting properties is that the stone fractures in use, thus presenting new surface to the abraded material. This also means the particles are "loose" and appear to wear out faster. On wood this is also not very advantages, which is one reason why SC is more favorable.

Mike

 

[Alf]

too many "experts" have no time, and or if they do give you time,
are very pedantic. "my way or no way".

They can hardly be experts in someone else's method - for that you need a different expert.

We seem to be going round in circles in all these sharpening threads, to be honest - there is no Holy Grail. There is no one-size-fits-all solution to sharpening. Just use whatever the heck gives you the results you find acceptable. When they aren't acceptable any more, look into an alternative if you feel that's the answer. They all have drawbacks; if there was a method that didn't have drawbacks we'd all be using it. :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[engineer one]

but then alf if there was a one size fits all. then anyone could do it, and woodworkers/cabinet makers would not be able to make "fortunes" selling their wares. :lol:

you are right, all these threads are kind of going round in circles, but if we remember that far back i was looking at it in the realm of a new comer. i think the last two posts from mike w have answered that very well.

i guess what i take away from this thread is "if you are happy with the item you made at the time you made it, but find the skills developed in making it have led you to want to improve say the sharpness of your tools then find the method which suits and develop the skill at making that better and easier too."

thanks again for all who participate, we do i think all gain an incremental view and maybe look more carefully at some of our entrenched views to make better things, of which sharpening is just a step along the way.
by the way alf they don't even play proper cricket in cornwall, how come you are still celebrating???
:wink:
paul

 

[Anonymous]

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[Alf]

by the way alf they don't even play proper cricket in cornwall, how come you are still celebrating???
:wink:

I haven't always lived in the back of beyond - used to be within walking distance of The Oval.

It has probably happened that someone mooned over not having a 50 degree pitch kit for their Lie Nielsen plane, while spending 3 hours flattening the back of the blade for the 45 degree pitch they have... Huhm.

Chuckle :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

as an engineer i wonder about what you and we call sand paper.
when i read american magazines, they all seem to talk about silicon carbide paper for sharpening, but is that as easily available here (UK) in
the right grades. i have used emery because my background tells me it will produce a finer finish on the steel, so why do so many american writers prefer sand paper? is it just that emery has become more difficult to find (because we have so few engineering workshops in uk now)
or is there another reason?

paul :wink:

Paul, it seems "sandpaper" has become a catchall phrase for any type of abrasive sheet. Silicon Carbide "wet/dry" abrasive sheets work well for metals because of the abrasive and the backing holds up to the lubricant (water or oil). Commonly used for automotive finishes, grits up to 2000 are available. I used to use SiC sheets but found the 3M mylar backed micron graded sheets are much better and the PSA backing saves a lot of time and hassle.
I buy these at Tools for Working Wood but they are available at just about any place that sells 3M abrasives.
For sharpening you need only the 15, 5, and .5 micron grits. 40 micron is good for establishing primary bevels and flattening backs. Joel at Tools for Working Wood also carries an 80 micron in non-PSA for quickly removing metal. With these, all you need is a flat surface (I use granite floor tiles) and a side holding jig (such as an eclipse) and anyone can get a high quality edge on high carbon, A2 or M2 steels.
Brent Beach has a detailed write up on this method.
This is a good method to start with as it is inexpensive, fast, and fairly foolproof. If you decide to go another direction, you won't have "lost" anything (he says as he looks at his beautiful, expensive, Arkansas oil stones sitting unused in their nice cedar boxes).

 

[Alf]

(he says as he looks at his beautiful, expensive, Arkansas oil stones sitting unused in their nice cedar boxes).

I may cry...

 

[Chris Knight]

he says as he looks at his beautiful, expensive, Arkansas oil stones sitting unused in their nice cedar boxes.

Roger, take up carving, you will need to use them then!

 

[Anonymous]

Excellent idea! (he says as he thinks about the box of lovely prewar German carving tools that have never been used)

 

[Alf]

Roger, you're not making any friends here... :roll: :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

... the box of lovely prewar German carving tool ...

Roger, you're not making any friends here...

http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswi ... =1#message

BugBear (with some Addis chisels)

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I started with sandpaper taped to an old floor tile. I just bought some spray adhesive cause the tape makes the sandpaper uneven.

And now I've bought a combi waterstone, because in class we honed with a waterstone and I liked it better. And I can see it will be cheaper in the long run. But I could have done without it.

And question girl says (please don't mock me, I know this is an idiotic question) -- you need to lubricate the sandpaper? I didn't, and it seemed to work. The blade didn't get hot or anything. And it got sharp.

evie

 

[Chris Knight]

Evie,
"lubrication" of sharpening thingies - stones, sandpaper etc is really to do with washing away the metal particles that will otherwise soon clog up the stone etc. and cause it to stop cutting - ie sharpening your tool.

Lubrication per se is not really needed - you need the friction to remove metal from the tool.

Water is used on the Tormek to wash particles away and also to cool the tool. Cooling has nothing to do with lubrication in this application.

 

[Anonymous]

... the box of lovely prewar German carving tool ...

Roger, you're not making any friends here...

http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswi ... =1#message

BugBear (with some Addis chisels)

I remember that! At the time I wasn't aware of the desirability of Addis tools. Really nice score.
I doubt the German carving tools are in the same league as Addis. I got them at an estate auction. The gentleman had served in WWI, married a German woman and lived there for awhile, returning to the States prior to WWII. It appeared he got interested in WW'ing in Germany and continued after he moved back. I haven't looked at the carving tools in awhile but I remember they had "Germany" stamped on the shafts and some kind of maker's mark. I don't believe it was the Lamp mark but I really don't remember. The handles were a nicely finished beech and the ferrules were copper or maybe a red brass. I need to research them one of these days.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

///

 

[bugbear]

I doubt the German carving tools are in the same league as Addis.

I don't know. Certainly its neighbour, Austria, has a long tradition of carving excellent; the carvers must have been using SOMETHING!

BugBear

 

[Chris Knight]

And the greatest carver of possibly all time - Tillman Riemenschneider (1461 -1531), was a German.

I sometimes wonder how he managed without a Tormek or diamond paste...