Sharpening Mediums - In response to the Autosol Questions

[D_W]

First, two edges as calibrators. On these pictures, focus on the edge, and what you can see of the foil, and not the scratches. This is at 200x optical. All edges except for the diamond hone edge are bright and shiny without flaw to the naked eye.

Everything is given a light leather strop to make sure no trash is left on the edge. The diamond stone is stropped briskly, but it would take a minute or more of heavy stropping to remove the entire foil, so I stopped at about 20 seconds.

Kitayama 8k - a slightly nicer version of the king 8k, and slightly finer.
https://s8.postimg.org/5t2diyf6d/kitayama.jpg

Ezelap 600 - settled in - a new one would be a lot more brash - this is brash enough.
https://s8.postimg.org/x3noqv2np/ezelap.jpg

A large ohira suita (a nice stone - it's sort of a rumor that the japanese finish stones are super ultra fine - they're dependent on the hardness of the steel to achieve a really really fine edge that's beyond something the kitayama. Their abrasive isn't as strong as modern heavy concentration al-ox stones, which is why the wider range that's hardness dependent)
https://s8.postimg.org/o8mugcll1/ohira.jpg

Formax green compound - this is the one where we field comments often about its spurious nature. Used on balsa. It's 70% al-ox, and some part of 30 is chrome ox. It's an extremely useful wax stick. Soft, and applies easily if you don't apply it too heavily and you use a drop of mineral oil. It cuts almost as fast as a finish stone but leaves a fine edge. The speed eliminates impatience mistakes or mistakes of repetition on a soft surface (rounding over edges).
https://s8.postimg.org/d91n4rib9/formax.jpg

Hand american 0.5 chrome ox on balsa. This is a powder that's no longer available easily in the states from shaving suppliers. Hand and a shop called star shaving sold it *cheap*, like $9.99 for 125 grams of powder. Danger if you have a shirt that you like - it's a pigment. The line for this stuff in the razor community is that if you want to get the most out of it, you need to bring an already finished edge to it. I'm not sure what preceded the powder, but probably the suita or another similar stone. You can see it smudges what's there, but it would take a lot of repetition to really remove everything (this kind of thing would be a complete waste of time - that could perhaps be 2 minutes of swiping it around after an edge that already shaves hair).
ttps://s8.postimg.org/w1di8awp1/0.5_chr ... powder.jpg

And the autosol. This is why I said it's a waste of time to go beyond autosol. This is done on smooth horse butt leather that's clean. I probably stropped it on bare leather afterward, and the dots on all of these edges (if they are there) is just tiny tiny oil droplets from my strop, which I scrape and oil from time to time to make sure it's not got contaminants, and that it's smooth. Dumbest thing in the world is bringing something to a strop and nicking the edge on it.
https://s8.postimg.org/uz3bpso6d/autosol.jpg

The forgiveness of the horse butt (which isn't much, but a little) makes the autosol cut more finely than it would, as does the lubricant with it (i believe it's 3 micron al-ox). The edge is wonderful, good enough for anything. The larger particle size than a micro compound makes it faster to use, which is also good. You have both a better chance of completing your sharpening job, and a better chance of eliminating errors of overrepetition.

Autosol on horse butt can have a tiny wire edge, as can the formax compound, and the others. A very light strop on a clean smooth strop is never a bad thing.

(I chose not to waste my time finishing a chisel with chrome ox after already finishing with something like a sigma power 13k, which is a 0.73 micron abrasive sized stone, and I chose not to do the same and follow with .09 micron iron oxide, though if you wanted to spend ten minutes, you could make a bevel look like a window pane.

 

[D_W]

One follow up, since I'm so impressed by the Autosol - I wondered if it would be more harsh on decent quality plywood (I didn't try MDF, I don't have a clean piece around right now, and MDF is fairly harsh, anyway, until it's used a little bit).

https://s8.postimg.org/xa1du31jp/autoso ... lywood.jpg

This is a picture of autosol on cherry faced plywood scrap. Still, extremely impressed with the quietness of the edge and I may start finishing the post-washita edge on this instead of bare leather. Just keep it covered when you're not using it, as every piece of dust and grit will stick to it. (ignore the deep scratches - they were caused by a failed experiment with loose whetstone powder - that stuff has to be used on something hard or it won't break down into its constituent particles).

I think a good deal of its fineness is the greasy solvent that it comes in.

 

[matthewwh]

Autosol isn't abrasive at all - it's a chemical etchant, very good stuff indeed.

 

[D_W]

i think it's 30 percent or so aluminum oxide according to its msds

1344-28-1

Whatever else is in it, it's excellent stuff. I never put it under the microscope before to see what it's doing. It's possible that it's hiding some scratching with its "grease", but the edge is even - wonderfully so.

i once had a seller tell me it was 3 micron in size, but I'm not so sure at this point.

 

[bugbear]

David; you've used some phraseology in your recent posts that is new to me (after over 20 years woodwork and sharpening discussions).

* an edge described as "quiet"
* "managing" the wire edge
* foil

Are these your own coinings, or are they from a sub-culture I'm not privy to?

In any case, I'm guessing that if I don't recognise them, many other members of this forum won't know them either.

Could you define/expand please?

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

Autosol isn't abrasive at all - it's a chemical etchant, very good stuff indeed.

Are you sure?

This MSDS says it's 30% "alum earth" which I think is a generic term for
"stuff with aluminium oxide in it".

It obviously covers a multitude of sins (they don't want the MSDS to give away their secrets)
but anything with aluminium oxide in it is an abrasive.

Link:
http://www.conservationsupportsystems.c ... utosol.pdf

Further research reveals that a CAS number is:
https://www.cas.org/content/chemical-substances/faqs

A fast google reveals that CAS 1344-28-1 is simply Al2O3

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Autosol isn't abrasive at all - it's a chemical etchant, very good stuff indeed.

Are you sure?

This MSDS says it's 30% "alum earth" which I think is a generic term for
"stuff with aluminium oxide in it".

It obviously covers a multitude of sins (they don't want the MSDS to give away their secrets)
but anything with aluminium oxide in it is an abrasive.

Link:
http://www.conservationsupportsystems.c ... utosol.pdf

Further research reveals that a CAS number is:
https://www.cas.org/content/chemical-substances/faqs

A fast google reveals that CAS 1344-28-1 is simply Al2O3

BugBear

Yes it is a fine abrasive. Much like Brasso only thicker.
Where honing ends and polishing begins is a detail, but the polishing either side of a bevel is important to reduce friction. You can often really feel the difference - similar to candle wax on a saw or plane sole - feels like a sharper tool altogether.

 

[monkeybiter]

You can often really feel the difference - similar to candle wax on a saw or plane sole - feels like a sharper tool altogether.

Can be very noticeable with carving gouges when the motive force is entirely from the fingertips.

 

[ED65]

If anyone would prefer to buy a British-made product for the purpose Peek is probably the prime alternative. It's also reputed to have 3-micron aluminium oxide as its abrasive component so effectiveness should be nigh-on identical.

Peek is available in almost any decent hardware store should you not want to buy online. If you are buying online though I should add that currently Autosol is cheaper on Amazon.co.uk than Peek.

 

[D_W]

We are really behind here in the states. An English friend used to go over to England and bring back autosol, and he felt like he had a special secret. He would give me one tube per year.

And then it became widely available here. Simichrome and flitz are more widely available on the ground here, but the industrial supply places carry Autosol. MSC (I think that's who I got it from) was carrying it for about $33 for a quart (I use it for stuff other than sharpening, but even at that, it should be a 20 year supply) and no shipping. Simichrome is usually much more expensive here.

 

[D_W]

David; you've used some phraseology in your recent posts that is new to me (after over 20 years woodwork and sharpening discussions).

* an edge described as "quiet"
* "managing" the wire edge
* foil

Are these your own coinings, or are they from a sub-culture I'm not privy to?

In any case, I'm guessing that if I don't recognise them, many other members of this forum won't know them either.

Could you define/expand please?

BugBear

Quiet edge - one that disappears into nothing in a smooth way. No junk on it, no noise, like a radio with no static - quiet. I don't know if I made that up. I can't keep everything straight word-wise. Curse of being a spatial thinker more than organized.

Foil - a carry over term that I heard someone sharpening razors use. It looks more like a long thin foil on a 16 degree straight razor edge and it comes off more drastically. When I look at the long bunch of junk on the diamond hone picture, I'd call that a foil. With brisk stropping, that could come off, or come partially off. With follow-up on a barber linen (an unreasonable expectation) with no abrasive on it, you could quickly round off all of the stuff, but the width of the edge increases accordingly (which make smooth but dull feeling). I posted a picture of that a while ago. An edge like that shaves hair surprisingly well, but removal of the foil leaves enough damage that ....wait for it...proving that you can manage the wire edge at that level is more of a hassle than just continuing to hone.

Managing the wire edge - a term that I guess I made up, too. I think most almost finished edges feel more dull than they are (and most beginners think they're more dull than they are), because the users haven't learned the art of thinning the wire edge (or foil) with whatever they're using and then removing it completely without doing unnecessary damage. That's managing the wire edge in my terms. If you manage the wire edge properly, an edge will shave hair or cut or do whatever equally from both sides (barring geometry problems, but you shouldn't have those).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I have used this before -
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Farecla-G3-R ... .l4275.c10

 

[D_W]

Autosol isn't abrasive at all - it's a chemical etchant, very good stuff indeed.

Matthew, not trying to be a stink or oppositional by pointing out the MSDS, just wanted to bring it up because I'd had the discussion before.

Someone did remind me between your post and now that you can modify alumina to do different things. I believe calcined alumina (if I'm reading right) is shaped differently and more round, and I'm sure you can make some aluminas tougher than others.

I'm sure there is trade knowledge for things like Autosol where they test a bunch of stuff or have prior tests and know what makes the most sense. In this case, it cuts fast and leaves a very smooth edge, and it's cheap. Hard to complain.

For the very stingy, if autosol is on a lap and the lap seems to be loading, the fix to that is as easy as just adding a couple of drops of mineral oil, and it's cutting fast again. If the lap is balsa or leather and something untoward gets in it, just use the top of a card scraper to scrape the leather or wood off.

So far, hard leather, balsa and good quality ply that doesn't have an abrasive or interrupted surface - all seem to do well. The cross section of the edge is probably a little bit less thick with the last two vs. the first, but it won't make much difference for actual work.

 

[JohnPW]

Aurtsol also makes a "Dursol #34 Honing Compound"
https://autosolblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013 ... pound.html
https://autosolblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013 ... n-and.html

Dursol #34 Honing Compound contains a unique blend of abrasives that deliver fast cutting action and a fine finish. This is a rare combination, as fast cutting compounds usually leave visible scratches and compounds that deliver a mirror-like finish are typically slow cutting and require a multi-step process.

This product, however, has a unique polishing formula, giving it superior cleaning performance. Dursol is the original metal polish formula created in 1929. Unchanged for 80 years, this product has exceeded that of the competition in several tests as a honing compound.

Dursol #34 cuts faster than other products on the market, and yields a higher level of polish. Additionally, it removes burrs from turning tools and polishes the edges to a mirror finish. Finally, and perhaps best of all, the tube size is more than three times as large as the competition.

In addition to using Dursol as a honing compound, you can clean, polish and protect every metal surface in your shop and home. It gently removes oxidation and leaves behind a slight protective coating. Just rub it on, wait a few seconds and polish it off. Use it to restore and protect plane bodies, turning tools, chisels, hand saws, hammer heads, or any other unpainted metal surface.

From description, it seems "normal" Autosol Metal Polish leaves behind more protective coating but is there any other difference? Anyway I've never seen it in shops in the UK.

BTW Tormek honing compound looks and smells the same as Autosol but it's much more expensive.

 

[D_W]

I also have a tube of dursol. it stinks a lot more (seeming to be unhealthy, I'd say), and it's smoother and more greasy feeling, but the overall result in sharpness is similar.

If I had to guess, it feels slightly finer. I've never looked at it under the scope, though so it could be the paste that feels finer even if the abrasive isn't.

It's fast cutting like autosol.

(a retailer gave it to me years ago because they were thinking of replacing a branded paste that their customers were complaining about being too small and too expensive. I'm not such a fanatic of pastes that I go out and buy them all. I'd stick with autosol for no reason other than the distillates in it aren't NEARLY as pungent).

 

[matthewwh]

I stand corrected, thank you gentlemen.

Still flippin' good stuff.

 

[Rorschach]

I never used the tormek honing compound, I used my own mix of rouge and vaseline, not that i used the honing wheel much anyway. The Rutlands tormek clone comes with a tube of autosol for the hone, though I can honestly say I have never used the honing wheel yet, feels a bit spongy to me.

Never used the autosol either but reading this has me interested to give it a go. Wish I was able to do a comparison between it and my homebrew mix, I would be interested to see the difference. Now I have read this I am going to give the autosol mdf a go, if nothing else it will be less messy than my rouge mix. Probably only use it for chisels and planes though, for knives I like the slight convex edge my leather strop gives.

 

[D_W]

I believe the tormek compound is just autosol.

You're better off using the autosol on a flat lap than using it on the machine leather wheel.

 

[Rorschach]

Yeah I always felt the leather wheels are a bit soft and could round the edge of the tool too easily. I use an mdf wheel on a bench grinder to do some power honing of things like penknives and kitchen knives, that puts a wicked sharp edge on them and is great for knives with tiny bevels such as chefs knives. As the cutting compound I use blue steel polishing compound, works very well.

 

[D_W]

BTW Tormek honing compound looks and smells the same as Autosol but it's much more expensive.

Maybe I should've been more direct in my prior response, pretending that I just think it's autosol. It's autosol. As you say, at a higher price. That's why some dealers now sell dursol separately or autosol separately from the PA 70 paste or whatever the call it.

Tormek has a business model where they make a pretty good margin, I'm sure, and that's probably why they're still in business and a lot of other people aren't, but asking a mint for autosol in a little yellow bottle rubbed me the wrong way.

Beware, though - if you go dursol - you guys are a lot more health conscious than most of us americans. I consider the vapors from dursol to be fairly vile. And I:
* ride a bike without a helmet
* use a chainsaw with no ppe
* run with scissors
* love the smell of toluene (not enough to smell it for no reason, but I think it's quite pleasant).