Section P electrical installations a true story.

[OLD]

I am doing work on a house to make it saleable so new shower lots of power points in kitchen and replace consumer unit .I have a electrical back ground so i got lots of info from here and the net and noted that diy is ok if you go through building control.
So paid £195 to do the above work i expected to be told to do the work and do not switch it on (you could have incorrect fuse ratings and be incompetent etc.) but no the inspector said 'do not close it in' just as if it was a foundation and 'let me know when its complete'.
I did the work to section p in fact to the letter, called him up and he arrived and said i expect you know more about electrics than me a quick walk round no questions and he said fine it complies with the regs and i know have it in writing.
I know my work is good but in this case the system is poor little training lack of staff etc. i expect the fees to go even higher as the building control just do not want this work and expect you to use an electrician
I would say that if you have a electrical background and understand what section p is trying to do then its quite easy to comply with the regs.

 

[Mike B]

Hi

Can you recommended any good links / sources of info??

Cheers
Mike

 

[PowerTool]

Here for info on Part P or the electrical section here for good background info on wiring.

What info are you after ? This has lots of electrical info as well.

Hope this helps.

Andrew

 

[OLD]

http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7553&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=225726
and the most usefull
http://www.stapeley1.plus.com/odpm_breg_029960 elec regs.pdf

 

[andrewm]

Hi

Can you recommended any good links / sources of info??

Cheers
Mike

I have always found the IEE On-Site Guide to be a good and relatively compact reference to the essential aspects of the Wiring Regulations as they apply to domestic installations.

But note that this defines what regs say about aspects of the installation like cable sizing and earth bonding and installations in bathrooms. It is not a step-by-step guide to how to do it.

Andrew

 

[kafkaian]

i expect the fees to go even higher as the building control just do not want this work and expect you to use an electrician
I would say that if you have a electrical background and understand what section p is trying to do then its quite easy to comply with the regs.

Yep, just checked, £246 because my local council don't have anyone trained to do the job and so employ contractors to do the inspections. The guy on the line was telling me to go the contractor route because it was 'cheaper'. I asked, "Do you reckon a sparky will fit several sockets, deal with a shower power supply and do the entire earth bonding for £246 or less?

"Er, no came the reply"

Say no more

<sigh>

 

[davy_owen_88]

If the BCO do not have the manpower to perform the inspection and testing themselves then it is their responsibility to pay for the contractor and not yours. If they are trying to fob you off and get you to pay the additional fees then just point them to the approved document where it clearly states:

The building control body may chose to carry out the inspection and testing itself, or to contract out some or all of the work to a specialist body which will then carry out the work on its behalf. Building control bodies will carry out the necessary inspection and testing at their expense and not at the householders' expense.

Sadly this is a common occurrence and it leads to many disgruntled DIY'ers jumping on the nearest bandwagon to lynch the 'sparkies' who are somehow blamed for this new law... :roll:

 

[kafkaian]

If the BCO do not have the manpower to perform the inspection and testing themselves then it is their responsibility to pay for the contractor and not yours. If they are trying to fob you off and get you to pay the additional fees then just point them to the approved document where it clearly states:

The building control body may chose to carry out the inspection and testing itself, or to contract out some or all of the work to a specialist body which will then carry out the work on its behalf. Building control bodies will carry out the necessary inspection and testing at their expense and not at the householders' expense.

Sadly this is a common occurrence and it leads to many disgruntled DIY'ers jumping on the nearest bandwagon to lynch the 'sparkies' who are somehow blamed for this new law... :roll:

Whose out to 'lynch the sparkies'? I would suggest that electricians are as much a victim of the legislation as the capable homeowner, the overwhelming vast majority of whom know what they are doing when it comes to procedures which are neither rocket science nor, in the majority of cases, practically difficult.

However, my suggestion is that added work WILL be imaginatively created by some whilst the unscrupulous will go underground and the not so well off will ignore out-of-date potentially dangerous wiring. There are plenty of references alluding to this problem all over the Web.

 

[davy_owen_88]

I wasn't saying that anyone on this forum was on that particular bandwagon, just that electricians are often blamed for part P like it was their doing and many householders are under the impression that electricians are much better off for it - which is not true.

I wish as an electrician I could pass laws, I'd ban neon-screwdrivers in the blink of an eye :lol: but electricians didn't ask for the introduction of part P, nor is it helping them to an early retirement, an early grave is more likely.

 

[kafkaian]

....P, nor is it helping them to an early retirement.

Agreed! More like an early grave as my home's doing for me!

 

[davy_owen_88]

Well... they say great minds think alike, I was just re-reading my comment and thought I'd add the early grave bit but it seems you beat me to it, :lol:

 

[RogerS]

Chatting to the hire man at the local Travis Perkins and Part P came up in discussion. He mentioned that he'd had his kitchen redone by a kitchen fitter. The kitchen fitter then sub-contracted the electrical work to an electrician (suitable qualified etc). Said hire man then went on to say that no Part P certificate was produced nor required by going down this route.

If he (hire man) had employed the electrician directly then he would have needed the Part P paperwork etc but as it was sub-contracted the work seemed to fall outside the scope?

I challenged him on this but he was adamant that he'd taken advice from elsewhere and that this was the case. Which I do have to say I find a bitstrange and could be the start of a whole new urban myth.

 

[Woody Alan]

Interesting thoughts Roger, so if you are asked upon inspection where the cert is, how do you prove the work is legit? doesn't seem quite right does it. What's the answer Davy?

Alan

 

[RogerS]

I asked him the same question to which his reply was that he would say exactly what he had told me.

Would also welcome Davey's take on this as I respect his expertise

 

[davy_owen_88]

If he (hire man) had employed the electrician directly then he would have needed the Part P paperwork etc but as it was sub-contracted the work seemed to fall outside the scope?

Absolute rubbish. The hire man has obviously fallen for the cowboys excuses. Notifiable work undertaken by a member of a self certification scheme requires a certificate of compliance for the building regs aspect within 30 days (as well as a copy to the LABC) A minor works certificate or electrical installation certificate should also be produced as applicable (did he get those?)

If no notifiable work was done, such as only replacing the socket fronts then no certificate is needed, but it is unlikely that during a complete kitchen refit no sockets/switches needed to be moved.

 

[Karl]

I contacted my local council not long after the regs came into force as I do a lot of kitchen installations.

Was told that they didn't have anyone qualified to inspect and that I would need to ensure an ELECSA registered spark did the works, as opposed to doing them myself and asking for them to be certified.

Interesting to note the comments re: councils obligations to inspect (or pay for contractor to inspect). Surprising that they didn't mention this..... :wink:

Has anyone else experience of actually doing the work, asking for it to be certified by the local authority, and getting into the debate about whether they have a suitably qualified person to do the works?

Karl

 

[davy_owen_88]

Has anyone else experience of actually doing the work, asking for it to be certified by the local authority, and getting into the debate about whether they have a suitably qualified person to do the works?

I hear about this a lot. The fact is, the BCO have a duty to accept work done by the general public and they are obligated to pay any fees if they should have to sub out the testing. Of course they will try it on but if you are firm and tell them where to find the information then they rarely make a fuss.

 

[Woody Alan]

Of course they will try it on but if you are firm and tell them where to find the information then they rarely make a fuss.

Interesting, because this is kind of worrying on 4 counts.
1)council doesn't know it's own rules, after what is now a fair time to get to grips.
2)The council do know and are prepared to be fraudulent with the public.
3)most people are ignoring the regs so there is not enough throughput to bring it to all the regulars in the councils attention frequently enough to make it stick.
4) The general public are not all lucky enough to get sound advice or do research and councils are ripping people wholesale.
Or the public believe the constant misrepresentation I see in the press/public forum that we are no longer allowed to do our own work and must employ a professional, saw that only last week in our paper.

The constant thread in this is it's the public who are getting the raw end of the deal.

Alan

 

[RogerS]

Alan

While I agree with you in principle, I do get fed up with people (Joe Public) expecting to be spoon fed all the time. It's their own damn fault if they don't research properly. If they are too damn lazy to sort things out for themselves, then they get what they deserve.

 

[Woody Alan]

Alan siad previously

do research

Roger I have echo your words whilst I sort of agree in principle , we are sort of a society and supposedly these people are an elected body to work on our behalf and as such have a duty to make the correct information available. Not everyone has your abilities and perhaps when one day you are not as able you may be grateful of a little help and hope it is accurate. Please don't take this as an attack because I am basically cynical (sadly)and in truth probably think like you, just when you sit and reflect and put it in writing it comes over a little harsh

Alan