scratch stock - in the rough

[condeesteso]

Stem and stock sounds good to me... as I regard the tool in its entirety as a 'scratch-stock' - so stem & stock works I feel. Talking of journeymen, I came across a Journeyman's tool bag recently, circa 1900, Canadian (or poss N E States). About 20" long, a roll of thick leather, circular wood ends, 2 straps wrapping round the cylinder into a handle. I have a pic somewhere, and plan to make a copy. Have made the wood ends already (cherry, but the original was rough softwood). Sorry to digress!
Now, just found the pic, see thread re 'tool bag'.

 

[bugbear]

I once put some research into this subject:

http://replay.web.archive.org/200909030 ... ratch.html

BugBear

 

[condeesteso]

Thank you very much Bugbear... I have just had a quick look but will go back over more closely. Just close to finishing the V3 basic one (G Hack's with a few bits on), then I return to the bigger one with 'stem and stock'... - here's V2 (bog oak / lemonwood) and V3 getting close (wenge / maple) plus brass-faced fence:

 

[jimi43]

I am so pleased that you put the bog oak to such fantastic use! Now all you have to do is sit there watching re-runs of "Heartbeat" and rubbing hard wax into it! My plane turnscrew has just reached maturity after about a month of treatment.

It's the only thing I don't like about oak in general...the open grain.

I take it you will be bringing the prototypes around for inspection this week!?

Jim

 

[bugbear]

Thank you very much Bugbear... I have just had a quick look but will go back over more closely. Just close to finishing the V3 basic one (G Hack's with a few bits on), then I return to the bigger one with 'stem and stock'... - here's V2 (bog oak / lemonwood) and V3 getting close (wenge / maple) plus brass-faced fence:

Hmm. That design shows a little too much Garret Hack for my liking. There doesn't seem to be any kind of depth control either gradual (normally provided by rolling the stem onto, or away from, its edge) or final, when the stem hits the workpiece and prevents and further cutting.

BugBear

 

[condeesteso]

Hi David - yes, to a point I think. First this is the basic mini-version. I still intend to return to the stock & stem variant which will be the more versatile tool. I got sidelined by this one, then got too carried away making it. The very first works just as well as V3 will so technically progress has been nil (thumbscrew quicker than M4 bolt, but that's about it!).
With this one I do find there is enough angle towards or away from you to adjust cut from almost nothing to 'maximum' at around 10 - 12 degrees - and more fine cuts works best for control and finish. Depth stop is the pencil line along top of profile on the stock - as that begins to go you're there. An issue is swarf build-up around the cutter and into the slot it sits in - the shoulder on the fence causes that so GH's very basic block won't have that problem. I have better blade support but the swarf problem.
Starting again, I would concentrate on the stock & stem version - It's next to do... keep that simple and invest the time in great blades and sharpening technique.
I'll get V2 to Jim - let him test it and do an unbiased user feedback.

 

[bugbear]

Depth stop is the pencil line along top of profile on the stock - as that begins to go you're there.

I'd call that working to a line, not an (actual) depth stop. I prefer a depth stop,.

BugBear

 

[xy mosian]

Today I received a parcel of scratch stock blade blanks from condeesteso.
He now officially is a member of my 'TOP BLOKE' list.
This forum allows bodgers, and craftmen to get hold of small quantities of what some would regard as junk. Also to share in the knowledge required to change something on the face of it of low value into treasure. I refer in this case to this post about making scratch stocks.

A public thank you to condeesteso.

xy

 

[jimi43]

You should be so lucky XY! I gave him a piece of bog oak on his last visit and he goes away and turns it into a masterpiece....the one on the left above!

Now I am a kack-handed amateur but in a few passes...I had almost mastered this little gem...and was making beading for my box lid like a good-un!

The tightening mechanism is a particularly nice piece of work! I can see a few weeks of making all sorts of shapes to try out.

Thanks for the gift Douglas!!!

Jim

 

[wobblycogs]

I also have to thank condeesteso for some blanks. He's been kind enough to supply me with what will probably be a life times worth of material at the rate I normally work .

I was going to pop down to the shop now and get started making up my first profile but it sounds like the young un has just woken up. Ho hum maybe tomorrow...

 

[condeesteso]

Hi all - i have a plan now. No more messing about! - back to stock and stem version, and one challenge to myself. A bead profile and a string inlay on cross-grain mahogany, under something approaching commercial pressures (though I'll have to spend a bit of time prepping the stock/stem first).
I think this is a real challenge for a scratch-stock, and I won't be happy with tear-out so I reckon it's a big ask demanding really good blade preparation. Have some box 1.5mm string.
I have an idea re blade profile for the string I am going to try.
If I succeed with the string then that's the way I want to do it in future.
Will report back, failures etc and all.
And no this is not an aesthetic exercise - i would not put these 2 together normally - it's just a challenge.
Probably go quiet for a while now... pics as it progresses.
Any tips welcome of course. And anyone else wanting 1" bandsaw blade stock just shout (just acquired another 12 feet, in a manner of speaking...)
Douglas

 

[xy mosian]

condeesteso,
I too will be scratching? cross grain mahogany in the not too distant future. One tip I have been given, I cannot remember where now, is to brush thinned pearl glue onto the mahogany before starting. Apparently it binds the fibres together. A friend of mine who makes cellos does exactly that before cutting the groove for the purfling on the fronts of his instruments.

I look forward to seeing how you get on. my own efforts are about a week or two away.

xy

 

[xy mosian]

Found it, from Pekka, sorry to have mislaid this Pekka.
This is from a reply to an older post of mine.
scratch-stocks-used-across-the-grain-t44189.html?hilit=%20cross%20grain

On an ellipse you can use the scraper about 80% of the time, so you don't have to re-design your work. I love elliptical designs, it would be a pity if you had to lose the shape just because of some ornaments.

End grain is no problem on scrapers. You may have to harden the fibres by applying some shellac to the wood, but it can be done. And you can always use chisels on the short distance that you can't scrape. It may not look perfectly identical but if you cut the edges with a mortice gauge with sharp cutting knifes. That way you get the edges crisp. If the scraped molding has some other sharp shapes on the profile, you can cut them as well with the mortice gauge and do the rest slowly by alternatively scraping, chiselling and, finally, sanding the molding. It is surprising how much the molding itself can vary if the edges are sharp and nice.

Some photos and ideas about end grain scraping were at

post ... tml#222364

The final shape is below:




Pekka

 

[condeesteso]

The shellac or dilute pearl glue makes a lot of sense. It hadn't crossed my mind the ways instrument makers need to form profiled edges across grain on tops - this sounds good as I imagine it will fix the very top fibres.
The string blade - was planning to create a profile with slight hollow concave top (bottom of channel) in order to try and make the tips / corners more into cutting edges, to try and slice. Also a very slight clearance return on the vertical edges, so it narrows a tiny bit from top. The channel would have a small raise at base but I don't think that matters, making the top of raise say 1.4mm down. Sharp cabinet scraper to finish the string to level. that's the idea so far on that one.
need to fit this around other things so a couple of weeks is realistic. Keep in touch!

 

[xy mosian]

You may also see this post in a diferent thread, my duff brain I'm afraid.

Cross-grain moulding is something I enjoy doing, but as others have said, tear out is always a possibility.

Depending on the wood, either a lubricant or a solidifier often helps. Lubricants can be anything from washing-up liquid, meths, or white spirit – or a combination. Solidifiers can be animal glue or shellac, both of which can be disolved and flushed out afterwards.

I made this cabinet a while ago with various cross-grained mouldings.

This from further along in the same post, I knew I'd seen reference to animal glue somewhere but had forgotten the lubricant.

xy

 

[wobblycogs]

Since Condeesteso was kind enough to send me some metal to make cutters I thought only fair that I show you all my efforts so far. My design is pretty much exactly the same as the one Condeesteso started the tread with just without the fence extension. I got a cheap and very nasty marking gauge from Tool Station, cut a (wobbly) slot in it with a hack saw and fitted a 6mm bolt. Using a range of small files I copied the profile of the moulding I need to replicate (it's quite hard to get a really good match and I was pressed for time). I then polished all parts of the cutter to a mirror finish using a combination of whetstones and the polisher on a Tormek. As you can see the end result is a pretty good match for the original, certainly good enough that I can merge the two together with a bit of filler and sanding so I'm happy.

Thanks for your help, I look forward to seeing the the final version of the real thing which I'm sure will be a work of art

 

[condeesteso]

Wow! - very good indeed. I was supposed to be going out today (sunshine etc) but got distracted. have hacked some depth and a bit of length off the added fence (Wickes Mk1 we're talking here). Also routed some 45 degree chamfers either side of the cutter. Made a string cutter - basically 1.47mm wide, 1.4mm deep - pic below. The flats are rounded (blunt) to act as a depth stop.
Sizing was critical so the micrometer came out. I have been using anything I have around to sharpen - had an old ceramic fine stone (why on earth did I buy that?) which is actually quite handy for some of this.
Anyway, just tried mahogany end grain - first dry (no shellac) and was pleasantly surprised - so then a thin shellac... better still. No pics yet, too busy makin' dust.

The bead is another story - I had a small bead cutter (about 3mm across) and the top breaks off the bead in places - there is so little material support at apex of bead so no surprises.. Next will try a bigger bead - it looked way too small anyway.
So, at this stage the problem hasn't really been the stringing, but the beading. More work to be done...

(In pic there's a bit of very nasty oak I tried first - it's grotty branch-wood with knots and all-over grain, generally used to test blades on)

 

[xy mosian]

Crikey the two of you are galloping away, some good looking blades there.

I needed to remove excess stock from my frame today and used a spokeshave, across the grain in mahogany. Without some sealer there was tear out. Well looking to my own tip I used animal glue, it worked well but there was a depth limit, of course. This meant a re-application of the glue and the consquent drying time. Now I expect that shellac would work in the same way, but with the advantage of drying much more quickly.

I have transfered my profile to the blade blank, using a computer printed sticky label, and am planning to shape/hone tommorrow. The stock? Well that is to be fairly straight with a built in fence, nothing adjustable except depth.

Have fun guys. xy

 

[wobblycogs]

That's very good of you to say but xy but I would hate anyone to think I was in trying to steal condeesteso thunder. He's clearly researched this and come up with a good simple design, I just had a morning spare and copied what he'd done.

Anyway... I was thinking about this cutting across the grain problem and it occurred to me that diluted sanding sealer would probably work. I used to do a bit of turning a few years ago and occasionally when I turned wood that was soft (say where there was some spaulting) I'd soak it in sanding sealer first to give a good finish off the tool. Worth a try as it dries in a couple of minutes when it's warm.

 

[xy mosian]

Anyway... I was thinking about this cutting across the grain problem and it occurred to me that diluted sanding sealer would probably work. I used to do a bit of turning a few years ago and occasionally when I turned wood that was soft (say where there was some spaulting) I'd soak it in sanding sealer first to give a good finish off the tool. Worth a try as it dries in a couple of minutes when it's warm.

You are quite right. Today I finished the blade and of course just had to try it out. Pictures just as soon as I can figure out the best way. Initially I was working with an animal glue sealer that I applied yesterday. As soon as I was through that I went to try shellac as sealer, but had none. Shellac sanding sealer shouted at me from the shelf and Hey Presto, it works nearly as well, didn't quite have the penetration of the glue, but thinning it would sort that problem.

xy