Scheppach plugs

[Shadowfax]

You need a 16 amp circuit. Not an addition to a ring main.
Also in order to have the installation completed to conform to Part P you need more than a competant person. You need someone who is a member of a "competant persons' scheme". Go for someone who is a member of NICEIC for instance. Or ask Building Control for information on who can do the job for you. They might have a list of suitable firms or acceptable sparkies in your area. They are there to help, despite what some folks might think. Part P is not their fault, they just administer it along with all other Building Regulations.
As a fire officerI am aware of what a faulty electrical installation can do so if there is a doubt - don't do it!
Sorry if this sounds like a rant.
Best wishes.

SF

 

[Pecker]

i accept totaly your argument, however I have just had this very thing done by a registered electrician at my own workshop (he was appointed by the council who own the unit). He told me the 16A socket was used due to the startup current - not the continous rating and the machind had to incoraporate their own cutoff device which replaced the "plug fuse".

I will however contact the council this afternoon to get this verified and let you all know.
mark

 

[Pecker]

By the way, Part 'P' is one of the most confusing regs to come in for a while, but you are actually allowed to adapt your own wiring in your own house - but you pay the consequences. However, i as a tradesman can only do certain things in certain areas. The stupid thins is as SF has said that now if you are an electrician and certified to the 16th edition... htat does not allow you to work in domestic houses under part P, you do indeed need to undertak yet another coures to become a "competant person" - or you must get your work certifed by a competent person. Even dafter is that that doesn't apply to commercial properties.

mark

 

[Adam]

By the way, Part 'P' is one of the most confusing regs to come in for a while, but you are actually allowed to adapt your own wiring in your own house - but you pay the consequences. mark

Actually, as I am, provided you notify Building Control in advance of starting work, you can as a private householder do any work on your house. Building Control are then required to send our a certified electrician to sign off (and test) your work, and issue you the certificates. Even non part P electricians are simply submitting certificates to BS7671, and although its up to the council to decide if further testing is needed, in the main, they simply sign off the work.

Adam

 

[Pecker]

Umm, according to the council officer I've just spoken to, the 16amp plug canbe wired stright into the ring main... subject to certain conditions relating to load protection and capacity.
However, he is getting another sparky out to double check it next week as he is not entirely convinced in my workshop it should have been done :shock:

mark

 

[RogerS]

That's the type of question you might get an answer to on askthetrades but the site seems to have been down for a long time. Screwfix Talk forum..electricians?

 

[Freetochat]

Surely loading and cutouts are safety issues. Not only plugs are an issue but wiring as well. You may get away with things for a while, but someone, somewhere will get injured by them. A 16 amp spur to power the machine correctly costs very little when compared to an injury. I had four 16 amp spurs individually installed on cutout fuses put in by a qualified electrician, total cost £65. Cheap compared to injury.

 

[mrbmcg]

Umm, according to the council officer I've just spoken to, the 16amp plug canbe wired stright into the ring main... subject to certain conditions relating to load protection and capacity.
However, he is getting another sparky out to double check it next week as he is not entirely convinced in my workshop it should have been done :shock:

mark

I simply *cannot* believe that this is so. That is tantamount to saying that for devices less than 13A you require a fuse in the plug, but for more than 13A that you need nothing? :shock:

How on earth would building control know what you were plugging into the socket? I mean technically if you cut through the wire accidentally with something you would be creating a dead short across a 40A breaker with no protection at all. :shock:

Nobody, building control or otherwise can determine what you are plugging into this socket at any given time. The protection must surely be before the socket, not after it? Or am I mad?

 

[RogerS]

I think we're maybe getting a bit confused between radial (ie consumer unit direct to socket) and ring main circuits.

The 16A circuits being discussed are radial circuits. The fuse or MCB or RCB in the consumer unit protects the single cable up to the socket. The cable is deemed to be adequately rated to handle the power that a 16A load will draw. The fuse or MCB also protects against someone cutting through the appliance cable that is plugged into the socket or the appliance taking too much power.

However, many appliances may be fitted with their own thermal overload cutout as well...

Ring main circuits also have a fuse/MCB or RCB which fulfills the same purpose...ie protects the ring main cable (not the appliances...that is the job of the fuses inside the plugs and assumes that the fueses are correctly rated ...which I'm sure everyone on the forum does diligently :wink: ).

Any RCB provides the additional benefit of detecting an imbalance between the current flowing in the live and neutral eg a line to earth fault such as you grabbing hold of the live cable while standing in a puddle. In the presence of an imbalance the RCB will trip...which is why it is important to test them regularly. On a negative note, they will also trip with a neutral to earth short or a compromised neutral but that's another story.

 

[Keith Smith]

Umm, according to the council officer I've just spoken to, the 16amp plug canbe wired stright into the ring main... subject to certain conditions relating to load protection and capacity.
However, he is getting another sparky out to double check it next week as he is not entirely convinced in my workshop it should have been done :shock:

mark

You can't, or certainly shouldn't, wire a 16A socket directly into the ring main. The socket is rated at 16A as will be the cable to the machinery, yet it will have a 32A supply, and I haven't come across any machine fitted with a fuse, thermal overload yes, fuse no.

You really need to get a quafied sparks to sort this out, but if you want to run a 16A circuit from a ring main then the simplest method is to wire a 2 way consumer unit into the ring. They are so cheap , about £13 plus breakers at aout £5 each. Use 16A type B breakers and, only if you find they still trip, fit type C breakers.

But this is really a job for a decent sparks.

 

[Pecker]

Since I feel slightly annoyed by the inference I do not know what I am talking about I wish to state the following.

I am a carpenter of 25+ years. I was the maintenance supervisor (agreed not directly repsnsible for elecs, but still supervisor at times overseeing sparkies)) for a large NHS trust, and site supervisor for a large school, I have rewired two of my own hoses and carried out hundreds of basic electrical alterations and just paid £40 to go on a half day seminar relating to Part P. (Not any kind of qualification course, just a seminar explaning the regs.) and run my own carpentry and maintenance business.

I am not a dimwit.

I do know the EXACT difference between a radial circuit and a ring main (which for the unitiated was used on naval vessas originally so if a torpedo etc hit, the power could still (in theory) get around the ship).

The Approved electrical company sent out by the council directly wired the 16amp socket into the ring main. I DID challange this , but as already stated was assured it was OK. Furthermore as I said *apparently* - according to the council officer - there are circumstances where this may be done. Do Not asked me the technical details as that IS beyond me.
However, the council officer does have serious concerns that this should have been done in my workshop, hence the sending out on Tuesday of another sparky.
I do not profess to be a sparky though I am fairly competent, so when I directly ask and am told it is Ok, I take the word of a fellow tradesman especially from a reputable company.

I am sorry if this sounds like a rant, I guess if just feel a bit defensive.
mark

 

[mrbmcg]

No need to feel defensive Mark

I don't think anyone is trying to tell you how to do anything. I personally am merely intrigued by the advice you have been given. :wink:

I'm not going to wheel out my credentials, but I realise you are not a dimwit. It isn't your knowledge or decision making that I am questioning. You have done exactly the right thing and brought in the "people in the know", I just happen not to aree wholeheartedly with them (yet?)

But I think that given your experience you can see maybe why? If I was you, I would be a bit concerned. Fundementally you have a circuit consisting of a Live,Neutral, and Earth and a current limiting device limiting the current through the live phase primarily. Radial or Ring main circuits are neither here nor there.

Wouldn't it be a concern that the difference between 16A and 32A running through the persons body in the event of a worst case accident might be the difference between life and death (although believe it or not 30mA is enough to kill you :shock: )

The only thing that I can possibly think of regarding the stance your building control may be taking is the RCD protection in your electrical supply. An RCD measures the current going out and the current coming back and if there is a difference i.e. some of it has went through an object to ground then the breaker trips. This is how they are rated i.e. a 30mA RCD will trip if at least 30mA goes missing.

I won't go on any more, all I'll say is that if electrical equipment up to 13A is forced by the regulations to have a plug with a fuse in it then I can't see the reasoning behind allowing machinery with a potentially higher current rating not to require one.

Again Mark, although this has become a bit of a debate, I wouldn't want anybody to be injured or worse due to bad advice. I hope you get it all sorted out in a nice and safe way. Good luck! :lol:

 

[RogerS]

No need to feel defensive Mark

I won't go on any more, all I'll say is that if electrical equipment up to 13A is forced by the regulations to have a plug with a fuse in it then I can't see the reasoning behind allowing machinery with a potentially higher current rating not to require one.

The rationale is to prevent excessive current flowing down the appliance flex.. A properly installed circuit using the correct cable (for example, the cable to your cooker) does not need any fuses since overcurrent protection is provided by the MCB or fuse.

As you rightly say, feeding any circuit from a suitable rated RCD will protect/should protect from electric shock...if not then you'll be dead whether you have 16A or 32A flowing through you.

 

[mrbmcg]

The rationale is to prevent excessive current flowing down the appliance flex.. A properly installed circuit using the correct cable (for example, the cable to your cooker) does not need any fuses since overcurrent protection is provided by the MCB or fuse.

I said I wouldn't say any more but.....this is my point exactly. In this case the correct circuit breaker is *not* being used. A 16A device is being wired directly into a 32A breaker!

Forgetting electrical shock and RCDs and for a minute, what about the risk of a fire? Suddenly you have 32A running through a cable rated for 16A - the cable melts, becomes bare and can start a fire, especially in amongst the sawdust! This is the problem I have with the advice Mark is being given. It goes against all common sense that appears to being applied to other parts of the regs.

As you rightly say, feeding any circuit from a suitable rated RCD will protect/should protect from electric shock...if not then you'll be dead whether you have 16A or 32A flowing through you.

100% true, with one caveat. If you manage to short yourself between live and neutral i.e. live in one hand and neutral in the other an RCD will not save you unless enough current flows to ground. The RCD will only trip when a current imbalance is detected between the live and neutral so if all the current flows through your left arm, through your chest and out your right arm then you will be dead unfortunately.

And on that note.... :shock:

 

[RogerS]

Hi Bob...I see where we were at cross purposes now. I'd not picked up that they were suggesting 16A off a 32A breaker. Agree with what you're saying.

 

[Shultzy]

This may be a bit late but I think you need one of these - BS 4343 / IEC 309 / CEE17 16A max (commonly known as a "commando" plug and socket)

 

[Pecker]

Forgive me if this is a short reply tonight, not feeling well after tooth extraction last week went wrong, been back today and found the dentist ( a good friend and customer)is critically ill in hosp and his wife killed in motorbike accident on Sat on A40. so not very *talkative*.

Wireing the plug direct into ringwas wrong. new sparky came today and removed it upon sight. Old sparks discovered only one other socket on that ring and so wired it in. Basically wrong!

will write more tomorrow when feeling better.

mark

 

[mrbmcg]

Forgive me if this is a short reply tonight, not feeling well after tooth extraction last week went wrong, been back today and found the dentist ( a good friend and customer)is critically ill in hosp and his wife killed in motorbike accident on Sat on A40. so not very *talkative*.

Wireing the plug direct into ringwas wrong. new sparky came today and removed it upon sight. Old sparks discovered only one other socket on that ring and so wired it in. Basically wrong!

will write more tomorrow when feeling better.

mark

I'm really sorry to hear about your friend Mark. I have had a friend killed in a car accident recently. She was 38 and had two kids under 3. Devastating, really devastating. Makes arguments about wiring sockets seem insignificant.

I really hope your friend is ok.

 

[user 2070]

It seems that G's dilemma with electricians and varying advice is now resolved, so my post is perhaps a little late. However, as a longish-term Scheppach user it might still be of some use.

I do not invite anyone to copy my installation, we need to use competent people (and comply with current legislation), but what I have installed in my workshop is as follows;

I connect my Scheppach machines (either TS4010 saw or HMS260 planer) via the Scheppach dust extractor autoswitch, which I connect to a 16amp (mcb protected) spur wired from my workshop consumer unit. The spur was wired some time before the regulations changed - so I was then allowed to give myself permission to do it! The only permanently wired item is the 16 amp spur.

The "autoswitch" delays starting the chip collector/ dust extractor (HA2600) until the saw or planer startup current-surge is finished, and also allows the chip/dust extractor to "run-on" for a few seconds after the main machine stops. (The Scheppach autoswitch was NOT an inexpensive device - but it is VERY convenient.) As the autoswitch is german origin it uses the 16amp german outlets for both saw and chip/dust collector. I use some heavy duty flex (2.5 sq mm) to connect either the Scheppach saw or planer to the autoswitch.

My drill press is connected to the ring main via a standard 13 amp plug (fused accordingly) because it does not need to fire-up the Scheppach dust extraction. I occasionally plug it into my Festool CT22 when I want to collect chips - e.g. produced by a large Forstner bit.

I also run my Hammer bandsaw via the Scheppach Autoswitch (16 amp circuit). I swap the leads over between the Scheppach and the Hammer machines.

I agree with earlier posts which mention the fact that the UK fused plug's fuse was intended to protect the equipment wiring AND its cable/lead.

However, irrespective of anyone's opinion (including mine!) we are all now bound by the need to comply with current IEE wiring regs (not an easy read) and also the current legislation which restricts certain installation work to "registered" installers only.

I might share my opinions on this state of affairs but that could be a little too much like politics ;-)

Simon