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Cheshirechappie

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One of the great strengths of the riving knife, short rip fence and crown guard is that (as long as they're properly designed, made and installed)once set up and correctly adjusted, they have no moving parts. They are therefore pretty reliable. Used in conjunction with push sticks, you have a set-up that has a reliable and inherent highish degree of safety for the operator and for anybody else in the vicinity.

Saw-stop relies on sensors and moving parts, which may or may not get proper maintenance in the rather dusty and potentially dirty environment in which they are expected to work. There is therefore scope for failure - blocked or failed sensor, and moving parts that may fail to move at the critical moment. I very much hope I'm wrong, but I fear that it's only a matter of time before somebody suffers a serious injury because the saw-stop equipment didn't work as it should have done. Also, I don't see how saw-stop can prevent or minimise the chances of kick-back, so whilst it's a very impressive piece of technology when it works, it has it's limitations.
 

Jacob

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I agree with Cheshirechappie. 2 push sticks every time. Saw Stop looks insane to me. If you ever get near enough to a saw blade to make it work you are doing it all wrong, but it may also be the day that it fails to work.

Sliding tables - when I first got one I found it much more useful than I imagined it would be. You can do a sorts of peculiar cuts very accurately and safely, even put a whole piece of furniture on if you have to. Useful for heavy timbers, repeat lengths etc etc. I'd get the longest one practical if buying a new saw. Indispensable.
 

nanscombe

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I thought, from the American demos I've seen, that the SawStop technology (rather than the saw brand) was simply to retract the blade very quickly when it came in contact with something conductive, like the operators fingers (or damp wood whoops!), to minimize damage.

I assume it came with a riving knife to deal with kickback issues.
 

heatherw

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Jacob":3ajo9oh9 said:
I agree with Cheshirechappie. 2 push sticks every time. Saw Stop looks insane to me. If you ever get near enough to a saw blade to make it work you are doing it all wrong, but it may also be the day that it fails to work.

Sliding tables - when I first got one I found it much more useful than I imagined it would be. You can do a sorts of peculiar cuts very accurately and safely, even put a whole piece of furniture on if you have to. Useful for heavy timbers, repeat lengths etc etc. I'd get the longest one practical if buying a new saw. Indispensable.
+1 I have a reasonably small sliding table and often use it to cut the legs off stools and tables for customers. It's the work of a minute, you only have to mark or measure one leg and all the rest come out the same. If the slider was a bit bigger I'd probably try it with armchairs as well 8)
 

rdesign

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Just started working in a cabinet shop in america! h&s they never heard of it nailers with no secondary trigger stops a scm panel saw with no knife and a saw stop with no knife. You have to be careful any trace of metal in a piece and the saw stop goes off. if u know theirs a brad nail in it u can turn it off but as soon as u turn off the saw and return it on the mechanisim is loaded again. its fense isn't that special theirs plenty of advice out their how to build your own. its mitre gauge is really good. but still its not that different my table saw at home a sip 01322 and that has a optional slider attached!
u can get it in 220 volt the 5 hp model if you are interested! for the hassel unless you think u are a danger to yourself don't get one just learn how to use a table saw from european demos!
Regards Richard
Learning how wood work isn't as fun if its ur 6 am to 2 30 job 5 days a week :)
 

Sgian Dubh

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HRRLutherie":3n0gpeqw said:
I'm probably completely missing something, but I've always wondered why people don't just import SawStops from the US. Even with freight and taxes, surely it would still come below the price of a really decent UK saw.
I don't think Sawstop really addresses safety issues in table saw usage that aren't dealt with more effectively through better methods expected of European users and the way machines are set up over here. Sawstop technology, although seemingly good so far at what it does, in preventing amputation and the like through contact with the spinning blade, is addressing a problem that safer usage would largely eliminate.

I worked in the US for ten years and found their attitude to table saw safety very strange indeed. Such usage as full length rip fences, the removal of splitters (riving knives) and crown guards from the machine, cross cutting long narrow pieces using the rip fence as a length stop, the fitting of dado and moulding heads, etc were the norm in my experience. My European style saw usage in America was sometimes considered by some of them as fit only for fearties, pussies, wussies, and other whiners. Table saws for many Americans are a sort of all purpose woodworking machine and the fewer guards to get in the way of doing whatever you want with any set up you can dream up the better, as rdesign is finding out now that he's working over there. Sawstop technology mostly addresses the issues of unguarded usage, but unguarded usage is not an issue we generally need to deal with in the UK in professional workshops.

Off course, outside the professional UK workshop there are amateur woodworkers here who seem to be gaining a great deal of their woodworking information (plus plenty of misinformation) and machine practices from American sources with, for example, the internet being a primary source, and then there's Norm Abrams on the TV over here too, as well as magazines such as Fine Woodworking. And amateurs I suppose can work any way they want, but Sawstop is technology that probably wouldn't be sanctioned for professional workshops as it is, so the only market for it might be the amateur or hobby market, i.e., too few sales to make it worthwhile. Slainte.
 

stewar678

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The problem is you have to replace the motor as it will burn out. US plugs run at 60hz and UK plugs 50hz, this will cause the motor to run slower and it will burn out.
it is still possible to have a sawstop it just means buying and replacing the motor.
 

Rorschach

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stewar678":234v52vb said:
The problem is you have to replace the motor as it will burn out. US plugs run at 60hz and UK plugs 50hz, this will cause the motor to run faster and it will burn out.
it is still possible to have a sawstop it just means buying and replacing the motor.
The motor would run slower here, not faster. My lathe has a speed plate for 50 and 60hz, the 60hz speeds are faster, by 20% as you might imagine.
 

theallan

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The disadvantage to using a sliding table over a cross cut sled that I can see is that the sled is zero clearance. Or do sliding table users typically add some kind of backing to stop tear out?
 

PAC1

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theallan":314vqdwb said:
The disadvantage to using a sliding table over a cross cut sled that I can see is that the sled is zero clearance. Or do sliding table users typically add some kind of backing to stop tear out?
Yes, I use both a zero clearance home made plate and if I really need to protect a veneer or edge then a piece of 3mm ply specific to the job.

The big downside with sledges is that people remove the crown guard or have them set to high so as not to hit the sledge. further I regularly see videos with people standing in line with the blade so they can hold both sides of the piece they are cutting on a sledge.
In relation to sawstop I would not want to rely upon the technology. My experience with all technology is that it has a habit of failing at the moment you need it most. It is far better to use a push stick, riving knife and crown guard and stand to the side of the saw blade.
 

theallan

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I was actually thinking about the open face at the back rather than the throat plate. And yeah - it would need to be guarded - been watching Steve M's videos on the topic :)

On topic: I'm in the same boat as most others appear to be int eh thread - SawStop tech could be a useful fallback if you really screw up, but if you use sensible practices it should never be needed.
 

Steve Maskery

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PAC1":2ft378p2 said:
I regularly see videos with people standing in line with the blade so they can hold both sides of the piece they are cutting on a sledge.
PAC, what is your reason for disliking this practice?
Standing to the left of the blade is defence against kickback when ripping (although a proper RK and short fence pretty much eliminates the risk anyway). A crosscut sled doesn't present that risk.

The main risks with a CC sled are, as you say, the removed guard and the risk of cutting one's thumb off as the sled moves beyond the blade. A built-in guard and an exit tunnel guard mitigate against this, too.
 

PAC1

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Steve Maskery":20obe8py said:
PAC1":20obe8py said:
I regularly see videos with people standing in line with the blade so they can hold both sides of the piece they are cutting on a sledge.
PAC, what is your reason for disliking this practice?
Standing to the left of the blade is defence against kickback when ripping (although a proper RK and short fence pretty much eliminates the risk anyway). A crosscut sled doesn't present that risk.

The main risks with a CC sled are, as you say, the removed guard and the risk of cutting one's thumb off as the sled moves beyond the blade. A built-in guard and an exit tunnel guard mitigate against this, too.
I have seen a piece of ply lift as the teeth at the rear of the saw take flight. If you clamp the wood to the sledge then it cannot occur but all too often it is just held by the operator and the flight is too fast for the operator to act.
 

Jacob

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PAC1":wm2gxswi said:
Steve Maskery":wm2gxswi said:
PAC1":wm2gxswi said:
I regularly see videos with people standing in line with the blade so they can hold both sides of the piece they are cutting on a sledge.
PAC, what is your reason for disliking this practice?
Standing to the left of the blade is defence against kickback when ripping (although a proper RK and short fence pretty much eliminates the risk anyway). A crosscut sled doesn't present that risk.

The main risks with a CC sled are, as you say, the removed guard and the risk of cutting one's thumb off as the sled moves beyond the blade. A built-in guard and an exit tunnel guard mitigate against this, too.
I have seen a piece of ply lift as the teeth at the rear of the saw take flight. If you clamp the wood to the sledge then it cannot occur but all too often it is just held by the operator and the flight is too fast for the operator to act.
This can't happen if you set your crown guard down close to the ply. It works more or less as a hold down.
 

PAC1

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Jacob, exactly but where a sledge is used, you regularly see no crown guard or it too high to be any use.
 

Steve Maskery

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Ah, I see.
Well I don't actually use my CC sled very much, as I have a perfectly good SCMS, but when I do it has an integral guard which would stop that happening anyway. But thank you for the clarification.
 

Lord Kitchener

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theallan":3hcxxhtg said:
The disadvantage to using a sliding table over a cross cut sled that I can see is that the sled is zero clearance. Or do sliding table users typically add some kind of backing to stop tear out?
Most (proper) sliding table saws have scoring blades.
 

Jacob

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Woodmatt":ef4p9wz8 said:
Have any of you seen this then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lekm3hWZgg

Not sure what to make of it.
Insane.
The yanks seem obsessed with grippers, hold downs, featherboards, but they seem to lose fingers and scare themselves sh|tless about kick-back.
They don't pay enough attention to crown guards, riving knives and push sticks
 

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