Saw Stop - Stops your blade instantly and SAVES your finger!

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi all

This seems like an excellent device. http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00108.asp

The company web site is here http://www.sawstop.com/home.htm

I wonder what Jeff Gorman would make of it.

Cheers
Neil

 

[Adam]

The american forums are REALLY against this device - from what I read - as Saw-stop (initially at least) were trying to get legislation through which would have forced all manufacturers to use their (patented) technology. Thus the price of table/cabinet/contractor saws would have had to go up.

The yanks all thought it a good idea, but hated the fact the company were trying to force it's use through getting it in by a back-door legislative method.

It's quite clever, I've been and looked at the patent several months ago and it certainly would give you more confidence - would it make you sloppy though?

Adam

 

[gidon]

I've heard this device mentioned - but never seen the info - pretty impressive. Didn't realise the conductivity of a hot dog!
Bit cheeky trying to get the device forced upon the market - but would personally be happy to pay £50 more for that sort of safety built in. On a planer - that machine worries me every time I turn it in (which is a good thing I suppose). I'm still having nightmares about David Free in the GBW using it without a guard!
Cheers
Gidon

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Adam

It's quite clever, I've been and looked at the patent several months ago and it certainly would give you more confidence - would it make you sloppy though? Adam

Putting aside the cost and legislative issues, surely if it really works it should be incorporated into every new saw as quickly as possible.

From a practical point of view, if a small levy was added to each saw to cover the patent it would be extremely profitable for the patent holders and could make it affordable for the consumer. The manufacturers would then have to re-tool to incorporate the device but, in terms of safety, the early adopters would have a big lead over their competitors.

Cheers
Neil

 

[CYC]

Fingers have no price.
Is it something which can be fitted on existing saws or this must definitely be built in?

 

[Adam]

Neil,

Don't get me wrong, I think it's very clever and would pay for it on my saw.

It would only be practicle on new saws, and from memory, belt driven ones only, as it needs electrical isolation. But I have almost forgotten the patent so perhaps I shall look it up this afternoon.

>Putting aside the cost and legislative issues, surely if it really works it >should be incorporated into every new saw as quickly as possible.

Gaurds are a really simple invention also, and most people don't use them. Easy to hit, Knee switches are also a good invention and people don't use them either. How about a rising riving knife on all US saws - that would have a far greater effect on injuries and they have yet to implement that - come to think about it - how about short axles to eliminate the use of dado blades?

I think their of lots of safety features that could argue they would have a big effect on user safety. OK, touching the blade will be stopped - what about a piece of 6 x 4 that gets kickback and hits you in the face/eye? Or hits you in the stomach and causes internal injuries?

For me, I'd like all the possible safety inventions I can get, as I want to use a table saw. The best preventative measure is to not use a tablesaw at all = no injuries! And with a good bandsaw this is probably quite feasible. If your government legislation doesn't require a riving knife, I agree that this tehcnology is no more "beneficial", and hence doens't neccasarily justify special treatment. We seem much keener here in Europe, and I would (probably) support it, if it was suggested it would be enshrined in health and safety legislation here, as we seem to have added most other safety features here where practicle.

>From a practical point of view, if a small levy was added to each saw to >cover the patent it would be extremely profitable for the patent holders >and could make it affordable for the consumer. The manufacturers >would then have to re-tool to incorporate the device but, in terms of >safety, the early adopters would have a big lead over their competitors.

Ahh, here comes that catch, in a nice monopoly situation would you pay the extra £100 for it? How about if it added £500 to the saw? Still want it? How about if all tables saws started at £2K as a result of this price? I agree your fingers are priceless - but for many, who only buy a cheap saw, and use it their entire live without an accident may no longer be able to afford that price?

Anyway all this talk of chopping off fingers is putting me off my sandwich so I'll stop now!!!! :lol: :shock: :?

A_L

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Adam

When it came to money I had exactly the same figure in mind as Gidon, which was fifty pounds. That was a sum that I would happily pay to give me the extra safeguard. :lol:

I agree with you completely about guards. Personally, I will not do anything without the appropriate safety guards in place.

In the US the dado blade is an accepted fact of life and currently they make full use of it. Knowing what I do now about dado blades, I would not use one in a tablesaw. I just use a router and a shop built jig. Simple and relatively quick.

We cannot legislate for the murricans, they have to do that themselves. :wink:

Cheers
Neil

 

[Scrit]

Yet another high-tech gizmo to dazzle those who have gadgetitis! The point is it STILL cannot protect you from a kickback (one of the major injury risks on a table saw) - which is the result of rising teeth at the rear of the blade digging into the timber. If you have a properly designed saw with sufficient power, a sharp blade, a riving knife, a decent crown guard (the last two both mandatory on new saws in the UK) and a European short rip fence, and you have bothered to learn how to use your saw properly - i.e. with push blocks, push sticks, etc so that your fingers are always at least 10 to 12 inches away from the blade - then this device is just about superfluous. I think that the reason it was introduced in the USA is because American saws are to say the least safety deficient, the design of the guards being the same as 40 years ago - in Europe we have, thankfully, moved on. I'd rather see other safety measures, such as eter standards for rip fences, than this.

Scrit

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Scrit

Luckily, touching wood as he types, I have never knowingly suffered from kickback. But, if there was a new type of blade that eliminated kickback then I would buy that blade.

Not having suffered from kickback I suppose it is much easier for me to imagine fingers being cut, particularly when you see the blade whirring around. I try to show the greatest respect for my tools and I take on board what you are saying but I still think that I would spend the money on the saw stop. It could, of course, just be that I suffer from gadgetitis!!! :wink: SWMBO might have something to say on that point.

I don't think it is just a case of gadgetitis, I have a real concern for my own safety.

Cheers
Neil

PS I have always set great store by your "Measure twice, cut once - except for fingers!"

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Neil

My point was partly because these guys are fitting a piece of electronics onto a machine which seems to lack some of what are regarded in Europe as basic safety devices, namely a riving knife and a short rip fence (their own machines have a splitter and a long parallel fence). The fore and aft rip fence they use is really a cheap solution more suited to sawing plywood than solid wood and can never be as good (read consistently parallel) as a properly triangulated short rip fence (like the Scheppach TS, for example, not the flimsy confections on certain other machins which shall be nameless) for solid stock ripping - ask anyone who worked on a Startrite or Wadkin BGA in the 60s or 70s.

My experience of electronic devices on (industrial) woodworking machinery are that the dust and resin inevitably cause problems (premature failure of electronic sensors, etc) in the longer term, leading to disconnection, which to me is another reason to distrust devices such as this. I feel that electronics are never going to be a substitute for proper training and understanding of the processes of wood machining and I feel that this device is really marketed with something like the old IBM FUD philosophy (fear, uncertainty and doubt). So much for my past life in the IT industry, that's me blackballed! :lol:

Finally, you are never going to get a blade which will totally eliminate the possibility kickback - it just isn't possible unless you also specify that all wood must not warp when being rip sawn (we'll call this the Euro-timber -- and PLEASE nobody suggest that to the EU, the straight bananas were more than enough for me, thank you). What you can get is a riving knife, crown guard and rip fence which when used in concert with push sticks and some basic common sense (or better still, training) will protect you from the vast majority of potential hazardous situations. After all, if it doesn't look safe, it probably isn't... :?

Scrit

Who will most definitely NOT be sticking his "weaner" anywhere near a spinning saw blade either now or in the forseeable future :lol: :lol: b

 

[Guest]

As a newcomer to woodworking my only "training" in machinery is via good old Norm on the box. So, what is the problem with dado blades?
Norm seems to use them often and I haven't noticed any gaps where his fingers should be.

 

[Midnight]

The point is it STILL cannot protect you from a kickback (one of the major injury risks on a table saw)

Seems we covered this in another post... and missed the point there too..... see... last I heard... the Saw Stop device wasn't attempting to influence kick back one way or another; that WASN'T it's point. Rather, to prevent amputation through accidental contact with the blade, something that by all accounts this saw / devise does rather well.

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Neil
My point was partly because these guys are fitting a piece of electronics onto a machine which seems to lack some of what are regarded in Europe as basic safety devices, namely a riving knife and a short rip fence (their own machines have a splitter and a long parallel fence). The fore and aft rip fence they use is really a cheap solution more suited to sawing plywood than solid wood and can never be as good (read consistently parallel) as a properly triangulated short rip fence (like the Scheppach TS, for example, not the flimsy confections on certain other machins which shall be nameless) for solid stock ripping - ask anyone who worked on a Startrite or Wadkin BGA in the 60s or 70s.

My experience of electronic devices on (industrial) woodworking machinery are that the dust and resin inevitably cause problems (premature failure of electronic sensors, etc) in the longer term, leading to disconnection, which to me is another reason to distrust devices such as this. I feel that electronics are never going to be a substitute for proper training and understanding of the processes of wood machining....

I agree with everything that you say but, even after all the relevant training, I would still pay my fifty pounds for the extra bit of protection that it would give me. :roll:

..... and I feel that this device is really marketed with something like the old IBM FUD philosophy (fear, uncertainty and doubt). So much for my past life in the IT industry, that's me blackballed! :lol:

At this point I feel that, as an IBM BP of nearly twenty years standing, I should protest. But what the heck, you were only telling the truth!!! :wink:

Finally, you are never going to get a blade which will totally eliminate the possibility kickback - it just isn't possible unless you also specify that all wood must not warp when being rip sawn (we'll call this the Euro-timber -- and PLEASE nobody suggest that to the EU, the straight bananas were more than enough for me, thank you). What you can get is a riving knife, crown guard and rip fence which when used in concert with push sticks and some basic common sense (or better still, training) will protect you from the vast majority of potential hazardous situations. After all, if it doesn't look safe, it probably isn't... :?

The point I was trying to make was that "if" there was such a blade then I would be first in the queue to buy it. :lol:

Who will most definitely NOT be sticking his "weaner" anywhere near a spinning saw blade either now or in the forseeable future :lol: :lol: b

I'm really glad about that. :wink: :wink:

Cheers
Neil

 

[Scrit]

Seems we covered this in another post... and missed the point there too..... see... last I heard... the Saw Stop device wasn't attempting to influence kick back one way or another; that WASN'T it's point. Rather, to prevent amputation through accidental contact with the blade, something that by all accounts this saw / devise does rather well.

On the contrary, I did not say it was attempting to influence kickback. I'll give you a quote from another source to try and illustrate (not my words, either, but from an American forum), "Kick-back does not always lead to a physical accident. But it is the main ingredient of a TS accident when it does occur". Perhaps you would like to consider this. Just because you've never experienced kickback in your 20 minutes a week at the TS doesn't mean to say it doesn't happen. Use a TS for several days a week full time, especially on knotty or wild-grained timbers and you might just have the unwanted and unpleasant experience of a kickback. I saw a fair bit of timber in the course of some working weeks and kickbacks do occur - in general this is much more likely when the blade is being used low to the table, but the effects are minimised by proper set-up and use of the saw. In my own use of the saw I cannot see that a SawStop would enhance my safety. This seems to be another case where you are prepared to argue the use of an extra cost gadget rather than for education in safe use of the TS. I recall that we had a similar protracted discussion where your arguments seemed in favour of building extra (cost) safety precautions around dado heads on table saws rather than the simpler, cheaper and safer approach of using an alternative method of cutting housings - and all this without you ever having used a dado head.

The SawStop was introduced for a market where people routinely remove guards and splitters and some use dado heads (again without the use of guards). Anyone formally trained in the use of the tablesaw should be able to tell you exactly why a SawStop will do little or nothing to protect you over and above the proper use of riving knife/crown guard/short rip fence/push sticks combination. It seems to be a piece of equipment designed to protect people who are willing to take wholly unnecessary risks in the operation of a potentially dangerous machine (and let's face it any woodworking machine used incorrectly is just that). For City & Guilds, HNC, etc you are taught the use of the short rip fence, crown guard, riving knife and push sticks and it is drilled into to you time and again that "fingers should never be nearer the blade than 12 inches". During training were you to break this rule you would find yourself barred from using any machine unsupervised until the tutors were satisfied that you had learned the safe use of equipment. And surely that's the point - SawStop is designed to protect your fingers when you've already placed yourself in easily avoidable danger - use a TS correctly and SawStop becomes superfluous. My contention is that safety training is more relevant than any number of add-on gadgets of potentially limited application (and incidentally costs less). But then, what do I know? :wink: At this point I think I'd better stop.

For those who are interested in the safe use of the table saw I'd commend the HSE website saw page to you http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf, it really is worth printing out the pages and reading them through, you never know it might make you a safer woodworker. This site is frequently referrred to on both amateur and professional forums in other parts of the world, so it can't be all bad - best of all it is free training! The full index of Woodworking topics is here http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/woodindx.htm. The Australian Govt. has a similar (and thankfully, somewhat less heavy) set of safety pages - here is the link for the saw bench pages http://www.safetyline.wa.gov.au/PageBin/guidothr0007.htm. For a good general links page on Health & Safety, try http://www.laymar-crafts.co.uk/linkm.htm which includes stuff on wood dust, etc.

Have fun, stay safe

Scrit

 

[Dewy]

Having seen this device & the frankfurter used to demonstrate it I am quite impressed.
As with many other things electrical I would be worried should an error occur without showing up.

 

[sawdustalley]

Sorry, i've removed the link as it is really not suitable for these forums, please read the rules before posting:

(1) No swearing or posting of "adult" material!

I count that as being adult, I wouldn't want any children reading it.

 

[Dewy]

I attempted to delete this post as the original has now been edited to remove the warning. There is no delete button now but is on other posts. Possible the moderator could explain.

 

[Midnight]

Perhaps you would like to consider this. Just because you've never experienced kickback in your 20 minutes a week at the TS doesn't mean to say it doesn't happen.

20 minutes huh..? Don’t I wish….

I contemplated correcting the mistakes in your observations, but realised that’d be childish and I don’t have the time. However, What I’ll do is relate what happened when I first encountered kickback. Stock was 18mm ply, roughly 600mm square, saw was set up as correctly as the manufacturing quality permitted, i.e. riving knife and blade guard fitted. At the time I honestly don’t know what I did wrong, (I couldn’t see because the guard was in the way) but just as the lead edge of the board was passing the rear of the blade, kickback. The board launched itself at head height over my left shoulder, impacting the wall behind me (little over 8’). As it travelled on it’s trajectory, it wrenched the guard out of position with enough force to sheer it from it’s mounting bolt, sending it sliding over the out-feed table. It was only the fact that the saw was in a bench I’d built to give me a larger table area that prevented me from falling into the now fully exposed blade.
Inspection revealed that the riving knife was kinked slightly to the left, not much, but enough to render it useless with respect to preventing the rear teeth from contacting the board. I shudder to imagine what could have happened if I’d been stood closer to the blade. Would a Saw Stop have minimised any resulting injury in this situation? After thoroughly going over both the review on Taunton’s site, and the manufacturers site I honestly believe it would. What’s more, the rest of my machinery could benefit from one too. Reading about how they’ve designed their own cabinet saw around the devise left me pretty clear that these guys are adopting a no compromise approach to the safety of the machine’s user.
The lesson I learned was that just because knives and guards are fitted and push sticks used, you’re still not perfectly safe with these machines. I’m not trying to advocate Saw Stop or any other aftermarket device, however, it’s my personal belief that a device such as this that gives some “when all else fails” protection can NOT be a bad thing. I want to stay in one piece as much as the next guy, 20 minute a week saw user or not….

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Dear Scrit

Thank you for your thoughts and insight on this topic which are, as always, much appreciated.

I always learn from your posts.

All the very best
Neil

 

[trevtheturner]

Hi, Scrit,

Thanks for your tip about hse.gov.uk. A number of info. sheets there of value to me - all for free and better than buying a book. All printed off (first job tomorrow - buy some more printer paper!)


Thanks again. Trev.