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Saw setting and Somax saw set

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dodi

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Hello!
A few weeks ago I finally decided to try to sharpen my handsaws. I have a Veritas dovetail saw-rip and a carcass saw-crosscut.
First I tried to learn on 2 saws, which I don't really use them anymore.
I bought a Somax saw set, the equivalent of the blue one (the one for higher TPI), but with magnifier.

So my problem is that even on the lowest setting on the anvil ~ 12, I get way too much set. The set is even on both sides, and after setting the 2 test blades at least for 7 times until now, every time I get the same amount of set, measured with a caliper. So I started to think that maybe something was wrong with the saw set, and not necessarily with my techniques.

It is my first saw set which I use so I don't have experience with other saw sets.

After watching how the saw set is working, i noticed something which I tried to show in the following pictures.

In picture a the 2 arrows are pointing to a small space between the plunger holder and the body of the saw set (red arrow) and to a small space above the plunger (blue arrow). Also please take notice that the plunger is in line with the anvil when viewed from the front.

In picture b when I press the handles, the plunger is hitting the anvil, and is rising for about 1.5 mm (red arrow), which is about the 2 spaces from picture a (I know that I should not use the saw set empty, but I did it for the clarity of the picture).
Also when I use it, the plunger is going straight until it hits the tooth, after which it rises the 1.5 mm when it effec

In pictures c and d, pointed by the red arrow you can see that in use with a saw blade in the saw set, the plunger is rising above the tooth of the blade, when I effectively bend the tooth.

Can you please tell me if this is the right position of the plunger?

Maybe if someone uses a Somax saw set can please check this for me?

Thank you!
 

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matthewwh

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It all sounds perfectly normal to me.

Once you have set the teeth you can stone them back lightly to achieve the degree of projection that you require and ensure that all of the teeth protrude by an even amount.
 

bosshogg

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Also the set decreases if you re-sharpen without setting, although not perfect, could resolve the issue...bosshogg :)
 

dodi

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The plate on my test saws is 0.5 mm on one of them and 0.65 mm the other. The minimum set which I was able to get was 0.35 mm on both sides, that would be ~ 0.17 on 1 side.
I forgot to mention that I the saws are 13 TPI. I would like to get about 0.10 mm on 1 side maximum.
I tried to stone them, but if I stone them from 0.17 on one side to less then 0.10 on 1 side, under a magnifier I noticed that the shape of the teeth are changed, they look more like pointed teeth, than like a chisel teeth like on a rip saw.

From what I read about setting a saw I found some information that the teeth should be bent somewhere 1/2 to 1/3 (it depend on source and type of teeth - rip or crosscut) below the top of the teeth.

The plunger or hammer (I don't know the right term) in my saw set is setting (bending) the teeth above the top of the tooth, see picture c and d.

When I start the plunge the plunger/hammer goes on a line/plane slightly below the top of the tooth, and when it touches the tooth, it rises about 1.5 mm, due to the spaces indicated by arrows in pictures a and b.

I would like to find out if this is normally how the saw set works.

I presume that the amount of set also depends on the angle on the anvil and the complementary angle on the plunger/hammer.

If the plunger would not rise above the the tooth, I think that the amount of set would be smaller than what I get now.

So before going to a more acute angle on the anvil and plunger, which means making a new anvil and filing the plunger, first I would like to find out if the way the plunger is working is OK.
 

pedder

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I think it is normal with the somax. On my i replaced the anvil with an eclipse one they are harder- You can turn the anvil disc around and file any flat you want. Then regrind the plunger to a lowe angle.

Cheers
Pedder
 

AndyT

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Dodi

I have an old Stanley 15-640 which appears to be the same design as your saw set.
Looking at it, the barrel is a fairly good sliding fit in the body, so I don't see your 1.5mm gap (red arrow in picture a) - unless that is just the overhang where the body slopes forward. If you really have that much slop between the barrel and the body, that is not part of the design.
Also, on mine, the top edge of the little plunger is in line with the outer edge of the circular anvil and stays in line. It just moves forwards, without any upwards movement.

That said, if the plunger is overhanging the top of the tooth, I don't think that is in itself a problem - the metal that doesn't touch won't do anything. If it bothers you, you could try shimming the sides of the tool (where the edge of the blade comes to rest) so that the whole thing does not come quite so far down onto the sawblade.

It's hard to find a saw set which really works for fine tooth saws - there have been some useful discussions on here comparing different models and even different vintages of the same model. I think you might need something modified for fine work. At least saw sets are pretty cheap on eBay or elsewhere, so you can experiment a bit.
 

dodi

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AndyT":2n2uq106 said:
Dodi


Looking at it, the barrel is a fairly good sliding fit in the body, so I don't see your 1.5mm gap (red arrow in picture a) - unless that is just the overhang where the body slopes forward. If you really have that much slop between the barrel and the body, that is not part of the design.
There is some gap between the barrel and the body (red arrow) and some above the plunger in the plunger body (blue arrow).
When I push the handles together the plunger is coming towards the anvil in line with the upper part of the anvil, and after it contacts the anvil (or the saw plate) it rises 1.5 mm above, and the 2 gaps are closed, you can see that in picture b.

When setting a tooth, the plunger touches first the tooth below the tip (the tooth tip being slightly above the outer edge of the anvil, then after I apply pressure on handles to realize the set, it rises about 1.5 mm like in pictures c and d, sliding/gliding on the tooth and making the set.
If I am not careful, when the plunger is rising, it also crushes the tip of the tooth, not a very big problem because after seting I sharpen again, which removes that.

I just wanted to check how other saw sets are working regarding this aspect, before starting to try to do something with it, or trying to find an another saw set.
 

baldpate

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I have a Somax No. 250, the blue model for fine teeth, so like yours but without the magnifier.

Looking closely at the mechanism in its rest (lowest) position through a 10x jewellers loupe, the fit between the barrel & the body seems to be almost perfect. There is certainly nothing like the size of gap you are indicating with the red arrow in picture (a). I tried to insinuate the tip of the 0.05 mm leaf of a feeler gauge between the barrel & the body, without any success at all.

In the rest position, there is a slight gap in front of the plunger on my tool (as indicated by the blue arrow in your first picture). I can't measure it, but by eye it looks about the same as in your picture. However, as soon as I start to raise the barrel+plunger (long before barrel would reach the point of gripping the saw plate), that gap disappears.

Have you tried to actually measure the gap between the barrel & the body. If you are experiencing a total movement of 1.5 mm when the mechanism is operated, then that red-arrow gap must be of the order of 1mm, which would be a truly huge amount of play! You should be able to get the pointed end of a toothpick well down into a gap that size!!!
 

dodi

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Actually the gap pointed by the red arrow is about ~0.3 mm, and the one by the blue arrow is about ~1 mm. My feeler gauge is at my workshop right now, but maybe tomorrow I will be able to take a measurement.

baldpate, please can you take a look at your Somax from the angle in picture b, and slowly push the handles together until the plunger is a hair away from the anvil, I presume that the upper part of the plunger will be in line with the upper part of the of the anvil, then press some more in order for the plunger to make full contact with the anvil, with ~ the pressure which you would use to set a teeth, is the plunger still in line with the upper part of the anvil, or it has risen some distance above the anvil?

thank you very much!
 

Andy RV

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I've got the same somax setter and an eclipse, I'll have a look at them today and report back.
 

baldpate

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dodi":wbse2ozi said:
In picture b when I press the handles, the plunger is hitting the anvil, and is rising for about 1.5 mm (red arrow), which is about the 2 spaces from picture a (I know that I should not use the saw set empty, but I did it for the clarity of the picture).
Also when I use it, the plunger is going straight until it hits the tooth, after which it rises the 1.5 mm when it effec
dodi":wbse2ozi said:
baldpate, please can you take a look at your Somax from the angle in picture b, and slowly push the handles together until the plunger is a hair away from the anvil, I presume that the upper part of the plunger will be in line with the upper part of the of the anvil, then press some more in order for the plunger to make full contact with the anvil, with ~ the pressure which you would use to set a teeth, is the plunger still in line with the upper part of the anvil, or it has risen some distance above the anvil?
As you asked, I've looked again at the action as the plunger is making contact with the anvil, from approximately the same view point as your picture (b) - i.e. I tried to look vertically 'down' onto the working edge of the anvil, the edge where contact is made with the plunger.

As best I can judge by eye, what happens is this:
1. As mentioned in my first post, as soon as I start applying pressure to the handles the small gap between plunger and barrel disappears.
2. Continuing to squeeze the handles, at the point where the barrel is about to contact the anvil, the plunger seems to be projecting slightly beyond the edge of the anvil. Emphasize slightly. A fraction of a millimeter, I should say. Certainly not a whole millimeter or more.
3. If I then squeeze the handles further, so that the plunger makes full contact with the anvil (as if applying the set), I see no further 'rising' of the plunger. It's tip is still projecting beyond the edge of the anvil by the same small amount.
 

dodi

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baldpate, thank you!

I have measured the gap between the holder of the plunger and the body with a feeler gauge and the gap is 0.25 mm, and with a wire I approximated the space above the plunger to ~ 1 mm.

So it seams that there is a fabrication problem with my saw set. I bought it new, and I use it for the first time a few weeks ago.

I will buy an another one, and then I will try again.

In the mean time, I will try to fix this one somehow.

Thank you for your time and patience!
 
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