Safety - Spindle Moulder Saddle Question

[pollys13]

I'm looking at getting a 125 x 60 x 30 rebate block with 2 scorers top and bottom. Block is for rebating window frame and sash rebates.
If I put timber face plates on my original aluminium finger fence ( see attached photos ) then a false fence on top of that , this will be a combined thickness of 30mm.

I think I've done my sums just about right regarding the following points.

If I move the timber face plates and false fence back using the 125 x 60 block I can only get a depth of cut of about 8mm before the false fence backs into the spacer collar.

However, if I use a larger 150 x 60 block, with the timber face plates and false fence attached. I can get a movement of close to 22mm before backing into the spacer collar.

This seems a no brainer...... regarding which block to use....... but?

My Axminster WS1000TA moulder has a maximum tooling diameter above the table of 200mm and 180mm below. If I use the 150 x 60 would a clearance of 25mm be enough for proper dust and chip extraction? If not, then how can I attach a saddle to support the rebate cut on the aluminium finger outfeed fence?
Cheers.

 

[pollys13]

Coley has come up with a solution.
Remove the aluminium finger fences and screw the boards straight on to whats left, just had a look at fence assembly and that should work OK, so think prob solved.

 

[ColeyS1]

I can't see any reason why you'd need to fit a false fence. Your fingers form a continuous path across both fences, so just crack on!

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[pollys13]

I'd need to fit a saddle, to support the rebate coming though onto the out feed to prevent it from twisting.
Can't work out how I could attach a saddle to the out feed fence.

 

[pollys13]

Uum, I'm thinking could clamp a timber, mdf face plate to the out feed finger fence and on that board screw in a suitable sized saddle, then move the whole out feed fence back to line up.

 

[ColeyS1]

It can't tip if your roller feed is setup correctly,that's it's job- continuous pressure and speed, doesn't tire like a human lol.

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[RobinBHM]

If you are using a power feed, you may not need a support saddle.

If the rebate block runs above, then the component has plenty of support underneath. You may find you need to remove the middle wheel on some operations, like this.

To help with smooth machining and keeping rebate sizes correct through the whole length of your frame and sash parts you should put some thought into face and edge marks.

Generally pair up components and mark face and edge so that when machining, the convex face and edge go to spindle moulder bed and fence. I know in theory, components should be dead straight, but thats rarely true in practice

 

[pollys13]

It can't tip if your roller feed is setup correctly,that's it's job- continuous pressure and speed, doesn't tire like a human lol.

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Uum, woke up this morning, thought about it all some more, started to realize, should be no need to use a saddle with the power feed
so finger fence it is and probably the 125 x 60 head.Think the steel and alloy same price, as a small block will go for the steel.
Cheers Coley.

 

[pollys13]

If you are using a power feed, you may not need a support saddle.

If the rebate block runs above, then the component has plenty of support underneath. You may find you need to remove the middle wheel on some operations, like this.

To help with smooth machining and keeping rebate sizes correct through the whole length of your frame and sash parts you should put some thought into face and edge marks.

Generally pair up components and mark face and edge so that when machining, the convex face and edge go to spindle moulder bed and fence. I know in theory, components should be dead straight, but thats rarely true in practice

OK thanks Robin,
but I don't quite follow you when you say, " If the rebate block runs above, " Say if I'm cutting a rebate, 60mm, high, I have the spindle with head lowered right down, below the table, then raise it up to do three cuts of 20mm. To me it sounds like you are somehow saying. I start with the block raised right up, then drop it down in 20mm steps? Running above?
Cheers.

 

[RobinBHM]

Yes thats what I meant.

I think most joiners would do it that way. The reason is that best practice when machining is to keep the same datum face for each operation.

That means in joinery terms, use the moulding side of the window frame as the datum face, then that face goes down to the bed on a tenoner, down on spindle and face to fence on morticer.

If you do 3 hits with your rebate block, if the timber moves whrn its rebated, the 2nd or 3rd hits may not run through the machine exactly the same and there is a slight risk of a stepped rebate. You will of course have lines from the scribe cutters.

 

[ColeyS1]

I'd have 3 hits for depth, rather than removing the scribers, or having scribe lines. I'd be surprised if it can't handle a 59x13mm rebate in one pass though.

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[Jacob]

I don't think you need false fence, finger fence or saddle. A rebate block is very safe and rebating with normal in and out feed fences shouldn't be a problem at all (set straight in-line and as close to the cutter as you can go).
If you haven't got a power feed use Shaw guards and two push sticks - it may feel inconvenient at first but you soon get the habit and it makes the work easier as well as safer.

PS if it's in two operations you cut rebates and mouldings from below so the workpiece goes over and covers the cutters. Until it finally passes of course and the cutters are revealed - which is where the push sticks are essential.

PPS a 59x13mm rebate would need a big machine (5HP +) to cut in one pass. If you need to do several passes then you don't adjust the cutter height you adjust the fence a touch, to increase depth of cut. It's quicker and easier.

 

[pollys13]

Yes thats what I meant.

I think most joiners would do it that way. The reason is that best practice when machining is to keep the same datum face for each operation.

That means in joinery terms, use the moulding side of the window frame as the datum face, then that face goes down to the bed on a tenoner, down on spindle and face to fence on morticer.

If you do 3 hits with your rebate block, if the timber moves whrn its rebated, the 2nd or 3rd hits may not run through the machine exactly the same and there is a slight risk of a stepped rebate. You will of course have lines from the scribe cutters.

OK thanks clear on that then Robin.

 

[pollys13]

I don't think you need false fence, finger fence or saddle. A rebate block is very safe and rebating with normal in and out feed fences shouldn't be a problem at all (set straight in-line and as close to the cutter as you can go).
If you haven't got a power feed use Shaw guards and two push sticks - it may feel inconvenient at first but you soon get the habit and it makes the work easier as well as safer.

PS if it's in two operations you cut rebates and mouldings from below so the workpiece goes over and covers the cutters. Until it finally passes of course and the cutters are revealed - which is where the push sticks are essential.

PPS a 59x13mm rebate would need a big machine (5HP +) to cut in one pass. If you need to do several passes then you don't adjust the cutter height you adjust the fence a touch, to increase depth of cut. It's quicker and easier.

" cut rebates and mouldings from " Yes I've learn't that, whenever possible, as an additional safety step, the workpiece should be run on top of the cutters.
" If you haven't got a power feed use Shaw guards and two push sticks " I'll be using my..... monster of a 1hp power feed. I'm familiar with this manual method you mention.
" the cutters are revealed - which is where the push sticks are essential. " of course.
I have an Axminster WS1000TA rated at 3.73hp
Thanks for your input and tips Jacob.

 

[ColeyS1]

At some point, you will have to turn your spindle on, instead of just talking about it !

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[RobinBHM]

It is worthwhile machining up a few spare pieces in softwood, it is a good idea to have a few set up pieces of the same section to help with machine setting.

It is safest to use set up pieces that are sufficiently long, the ideal length is so that you can push the piece into the cutter a few inches but still have 6" to a foot beyond the infeed table so you have something to keep hold of and retract easily.


In fact why not make a practice window frame in softwood first.

 

[Chip shop]

EDIT: to say I was referring to Robin's comments on page 1 rather than the comment directly above this...having said that I agree with the above post totally.

Not too sure I understand the problem, but, as Robin mentioned above, I'd always 'over-cut' a rebate like that. You leave the datum face on the bed of the machine and let the power feed do its stuff.

I've never used less than a 5 horse spindle, but I'd try cutting full depth on a piece of scrap and seeing if the machine is up to it...I think it might be! Remember to set the machine to the maximum revs the tooling is speced for (probably 9 to 10 thousand RPM for a modern rebate block) and make sure you can't get bits of yourself into the business end. Set the power-feed to its slowest setting and crack on.

The spindle moulder has a really bad reputation for safety, but it's mostly just hearsay from a bygone age of square blocks. Modern blocks don't 'throw' cutters, and with a power-feed, respect and a little common sense they are probably one of the safest machines in the workshop.

I was cutting some decent sized rebates yesterday and my in-feed setup looked like this...