safety laws

[Anonymous]

does anyone agree that the methods used by norm abrahams on the
wew yankee workshop are perfectly sound ? having struggled with the
problem of finding a stacked head dado cutter. i had to modify my scheppach ts2000 which had various bits in the way specifically
designed to prevent a dado head being fitted.i am all for safety but i
think sometimes the nanny state takes over.having worked in wood at
an amateur level for many years i have only had 1 accident with a
circular saw.it had an overly complicated guard on and blocked all the
vision of the blade leading me to reach for the off-cut.(yes i know),but
it was quite a few years ago.anyway my dado head works perfectly and
safely and is a valuble piece of kit.

 

[Anonymous]

Dado head cutters are found in most shops in the US. Do not think they are anymore "unsafe" than a regular blade. Just keep in mind that the blade gaurd must be removed for this tyoe of operation. (never use a gaurd myself anyway..........)

 

[sawdustalley]

You see in England were not suppost to use them. There not available in many places and you can't legally see a T/S over here to accept one anymore. The blades are Legall but the Long arbors arn't

Oh well just have to use the router

 

[Charley]

You have to remember the common table saw’s available to Norm and our friends across the pond of far superior to the ones we can get here.

Their table saws are cast-iron and powerful which can handle a dado head safely but our saws are lightweight (which weren’t designed for a dado head and modifying it makes it dangerous), unless you want to spend £1000 for a heavy duty one.

If I had one of the great table saws from across the pond I would really think about using a dado head but with the machines we get over here I wouldn't even consider it... :roll:

 

[Keystone]

With that said.............

I do not use a Dado blade very often at all. I prefer to use a router for rabbit and dado cuts. So you see, the grass is not always greener on the other side of the pond!

 

[Anonymous]

Charley

I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree :x with what you are saying. Americans have alu saws available to them too, just as much as we have, but they choose not to show them on tv. Lets face it Norm can afford a cast saw.
As for a price tag of £10000, where are you shopping. You could get a brand new Sedgwick for less than half that, and a second-hand Wadkin :twisted: for less still.
As for the reason that dado heads are illeagal in this country, due to our exelent past govenments we are, weather we like it or not, Europeans. Meaning European safety laws. Machine guidelines covered in the past by HASWA and other acts, have been re-written under the huge umbrella of PUWER. One guideline being that 'one machine cannot be adapted to perform anothers task, unless it is completely safe to do so'. Hence we can no longer use surfacers for cutting rebates (NOT RABBITS or a table saw for cutting dados.

Sorry for the rant
Doughnut :wink:

 

[Charley]

oops added an extra 0 , I ment £1000 :roll:

Although American's do have alu saws over there lets face it you can buy a cast-iron contractor saw with a Biesemeyer fence for under £600 :shock: and here all you get for that price is a alu table with a sheet metal base...

Anyway I'm not complaining (much) Going to order myself a Scheppach TS2000 next month

BTW doughnut I've had a look at your site - very nice projects

 

[Anonymous]

Charley

Thanks. Im just trying to sort a new site out at the minute. I built that one about a year ago, and the firm that uploaded it for me changed all the scripting :? so now I cant change anything. Ill not use them again!

If your in the market for a saw, have you looked at the metabo magnum range. Theyre not cheap, but the build quality is superb. The one I bought about a year ago is excellent, and you can strip it down to fit in the boot of your car for site work.
The only gripes I have are the depth of cut (54mm) which is a bit restricting, although you can cut 100mm with a bit of jiggery pokery if you know what I mean (its not exactly an ACOP in the afore mentioned PUWER regs), and the outrip of 400mm, but this can be extended to 600mm when i get round to buying another extension.

(HASWA = Health And Safety at Wotk Act)
(ACOP = Approved Code Of Practive)
PUWER = Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations)

Cheers
Matt

P.S. Ive just moved into a new workshop, well cowshed, so now have room for a bigger planer if anybody wants to get rid of one.

 

[Anonymous]

Charley

I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree :x with what you are saying. Americans have alu saws available to them too, just as much as we have, but they choose not to show them on tv. Lets face it Norm can afford a cast saw.
As for a price tag of £10000, where are you shopping. You could get a brand new Sedgwick for less than half that, and a second-hand Wadkin :twisted: for less still.
As for the reason that dado heads are illeagal in this country, due to our exelent past govenments we are, weather we like it or not, Europeans. Meaning European safety laws. Machine guidelines covered in the past by HASWA and other acts, have been re-written under the huge umbrella of PUWER. One guideline being that 'one machine cannot be adapted to perform anothers task, unless it is completely safe to do so'. Hence we can no longer use surfacers for cutting rebates (NOT RABBITS or a table saw for cutting dados.

Sorry for the rant
Doughnut :wink:

:bear with me on this one folks,but i cannot see why a surfacer cannot cut a rebate safely.you have an exposed cutter as in normal surfacing,it's just at the edge or am i missing something here?

 

[wood1000]

that ok for rabbits, but what about the dados and groves?

 

[Anonymous]

Harry

Ask the HSE, Having used a surfacer for rebating, I cant see any major problem with it. Ive just had a look at their site, and this is what I found:-


PUWER 98 requires that the most suitable (ie lowest
risk) machine available is selected for every machining
operation. For example, cutting a rebate on a properly
guarded vertical spindle moulding machine is lower risk
than a surface-planing machine.2

Stopped work should never be done on a hand-fed
planing machine - eg only use the machine for jobs
involving the full length of the workpiece.

New (CE-marked) planing machines should be designed
so that it is not possible to carry out rebating using the
end of the cutter block.4 On old (eg pre-1995) machines,
rebating using the end of the block can be done
provided a more suitable machine is not available and
that:

l the workpiece is properly supported (see Figure 9);
l a tunnel guard is formed, eg by means of Shaw
guards, which prevents the operator’s hands from
reaching the cutter block;
l the table gap is guarded on both sides of the fence;
l correctly ground cutters are used to reduce the risk
of workpiece kick-back.

Hope this helps
Matt. :roll:

 

[Scrit]

Harry

What that means is that a rebate should be cut on a spindle if you have one (in any case a good skew cut rebate block with a scriber on a spindle is quicker, takes a heavier cut and gives better results than either the table saw or overhand planer - surfaces for our US colleagues). Frankly using a set of Shaw guards on an overhand planer is a real pain, whilst using a saw without guards and a dado cutter is hazardous at best.

Doughnut

The moves on dado cutters on saws really started around the time of the 1974 WW Regs in the UK, so don't blame the EU! The same Act also eventually put an end to square planer blocks and square spindle moulder blocks - both frightening when they let a cutter go!

The biggest problem I can see with dado heads is that they are likely to detach if your motor is braked - and all modern ones are. Who wants a roomful of spinning flying metal?

Scrit

 

[Anonymous]

Point Taken

Doughnut

 

[bobthejoiner]

maybe this link will help

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis38.pdf


and dont forget all new machines now have to be electronically braked and must be able to stop within 10 seconds

 

[Scrit]

Don't forget the requirement to retrofit brakes (dates vary) and update ALL tooling by December 2003 to limiter type blocks if you are an employer - not a bad idea even if you aren't

 

[Anonymous]

I used to use dado cutters and wobble saws years ago but always fitted to a dewalt radial arm. I can't remember wether the normal guard fitted, we had a purpose bought one or just made our own. It did take a bit of getting used to as the bite could be a bit fierce if you cut too deeply in one cut or the blades were blunt but it worked perfectly well.Your only problem was when cutting a rebate in a board wider than the bed or when the blade was turned through 90degrees and used for ripping you were confined to the maximum distance that would allow from the end of the board. I have seen a freud dado cutter for sale recently in a local shop but it was about £70. You can also sometimes pick them up at 2nd hand tool fairs. Hope this has been useful.

 

[sawdustalley]

Firstly Welcome to the forums

Some good points made. I think Dado and Wobble blades are still OK to use on a radial arm saw (But not tablesaw) I'm not sure.

I know you can definetly buy wobble blades specifically for the Elumina saw.

 

[Scrit]

The deWalt RASs used to have a special wide guard for use with dado blades - the standard guard is far too narrow to accommodate anything other than a crosscut-type blade. SOME very old deWalts (i.e. pre-1970 or so, model DW110 or earlier) used to have a simple guard which was wide enough to accommodate a 1/2in wobble saw or dado blade. It should be noted that deWalt used to sell an "anti-kickback steady" (basically a gas strut on the arm of the machine) to limit the effect of kick back when using dado heads or sawing materials like aluminium profiles.

When Elu (now deWalt) took over ("badged") the deWalt radial arm saws some 10 years ago or so they fitted a motor brake which meant that they dropped the dado blades and dado guard in short order. So if you have a newer RAS with a motor brake (mainly silver Elu or yellow-era deWalts) it is very dangerous to use a dado head with the RAS as the sudden braking when you power down can loosen the blade nut and send the dado cutters spinning in your direction. Very interesting!

James

This is an very old discussion about dado blades. They are not illegal per se, but they are a lot more dangerous to use than standard blades because of their propensity to kick back (especially on knotted stock), climb the work (on RASs especially when the blades are even slightly blunt) and throw blades if not properly secured to the arbor (under braking). If you work at this game you'll probably avoid them simply because there are far better, and safer, ways of working - that and the fact that unlike lizards WE can't regrow digits!

 

[sawdustalley]

Hmm - I wonder if axminster will sell spare body parts in 100 years time ? :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

I watch Norm as well and whilst I don't agree with all his methods, he still has all his bits and pieces though. I don't see what all the big fuss is about with dado's, like all things in life you have to watch what you are doing and having a strong enough machine to use one. I would not dream of fitting one to a £100 saw bench, but the larger machines I don't see a problem. As you say we are now in the nanny state, but does it stop accidents, not on your nelly, there will always be accidents, as long as humanbeings are involved. Most accidents are caused through human error that machine break down, so the answer is, whether you are using a dado or not or any power tool, be careful. If a machine is gaurded so that we cannot hurt ourselves, then we would not be able to use it, come to that then all forms of transport, cars, trains etc, should be banned by the lovely EEC beacuse they cause accidents.
I use a dado on my saw bench and I think there great, but whether i am using it or a standard blabe the same common sence is taken, LOOK WHAT YOUR DOING.