Mark, you are so right. And after a while it becomes just another task on a list of tasks you need to finish. Maybe that’s why guys like Crossman and sellers don’t bother with crumongians like us.
I don't know much about Krenov. Came across one of his books in the local library in the early 70's and the simplicity of design struck a chord with me. I pretty much forgot about him until I noticed the book in a charity shop 2-3 years ago and bought it. The designs still appealed. I had some time on my hands while recovering from surgery, and very small quantity of nicely figured oak that had been moved around the workshop for 4-5 years, so I combined the two to make something 'in the style of'. Did it work? Mmmm...not quite. The heavily figured quarter-sawn oak somehow undermined the simplicity I'd hoped for. But I don't have to keep shunting that oak around anymore and as a hobbyist I enjoyed the exercise.OK, I just read more about krenov than I ever did before. for those of us unaware of his history:
* lived in the US
* moved to europe with his mother a *long* time ago
* ended up in sweden hiking and fishing a lot, and eventually took a job for a modelmaker who built things for restaurants (this seems like an odd line of text, but that may just mean building little details that restaurants would like to have for uniqueness - vs. big coarse joinery).
* got a 2 year education from someone famous for design in sweden (I may be butchering some of these a bit - this isn't a peer reviewed summary)
* worked in his basement, sold a book and it sold better than he expected - 1970s
* got a permanent job at a college around 1980 (there's a lot of time between 1920 and 1980 - if I recall correctly, frid was already out of industry work and teaching by the time he was in his mid to late 30s?)
here's the departure in the US vs. Europe - my grandparents came to financial comfort in the 1950s. In the US, tradition didn't really amount to much - at least in keeping things. American and European history for them was a big thing, but you don't have to fill your house with rubbish to know about something.
The wiki entry makes it sound like krenov got traction in the 1970s when he wrote a book, and the excerpts google brings about are a bit on the woo side. They're not the whole technical design and aspects, but more about the "touch" or "harken back to hand made" kind of thing. I guess that hit big here in the 1970s after the hippies and counterculture, and probably was about when hobby woodworking took on more than crude stuff for most here.
It also coincided perfectly with the period when disposable income started to expand greatly in the US (coming out of the 70s and through to now, disposable income has exploded). If the same book had been written in the 40s, it would've probably fallen flat.
(this departure mentioned as frid and peters are often mentioned as having had a go in production woodwork and it sounds like krenov was more like a "make it in the basement for a while" kind of guy.
Sellers....not in the same conversation. I don't see any evidence that he ever made a living on mid-high to high end work, but he does have a lot of the woo).
Sorry if my explanation made it sound like he wasn't doing anything - what I was intending to imply was that between schooling and working for a modeler, he must've been *actually doing things woodworking* for quite some time, and making a living at it, as this is what wikipedia said:
"... and then struck out on his own, keeping a shop in his basement...."
Most modern hobbyists would see this as a perjorative, but in the united states, it's not that uncommon for people to have worked professionally out of their house (garage or basement, whatever it may be), and that's exactly what local furniture restorers in my area did. It's a matter of economic necessity for a lot of those folks, and the tax system made it more beneficial than renting space elsewhere and leaving the basement unused, let's say).
A brief reading (wikipedia -krenov) looks like:
* he had two years of formal education
* he got a job in a professional shop as a modeler (I went back and read again, he was staffed to make architectural models of restaurants)
* he then went out on his own at some point
* he ended up back in the US and eventually had a professorial position beginning around 1980 or 1981, but his first book was published in 1976. If someone is going to go out and release media to troll for beginners, they're probably going to do it before they're 55 or 56 years old (the snippet also says he was surprised at its success). If they're going to give up and find teaching easier, then they'll look more like Cosman or Sellers. I don't know if too many people are going to suggest that Cosman or Sellers had a serious career as a maker for any duration before finding the lure of teaching beginners.
With no other occupation mentioned specifically, one would assume he was doing woodworking of some sort professionally - the article (wiki) isn't specific enough to give much of the timeline between the two year college. For all we know, his basement could've been 1500 square feet.
My other comments about only doing it the way krenov does it have nothing to do with his actual work - more peoples' interpretation that there's a personality that they latch on to and then they hope to become an impersonator. Elvis didn't use a guitar that looked like the one Prince does, so then I won't. That kind of thing.
There's apparently a group of folks here locally who are into the "handles on planes make them uncomfortable", and in the past, David Finck has been here to do a class on plane making and use. This came up because in discussing potentially giving a hands on class about a few things, I mentioned that I made planes. When I said they're more of a combination of bits from around 1800-1850 because those planes are more practical if you're going to do most of your work by hand, the responses was : many of our members are mostly hand tool users, but of course after the stock is roughed and is through with the thickness planer. I don't know what krenov said about planes other than that handles are uncomfortable because I receive YT PMs from time to time questioning why I would make a plane with handles when it's "less comfortable".
What usually happens is a slow realization that "you can't get anything done working by hand" is a statement made in a professional context .If someone is working as a hobby worker, relying on Krenov's balance of doing the rough work by machines isn't required - you can dimension four or five board feet of fine hardwood an hour (and do it maybe when you're already tired and it will perk you up and build neurons - but if you do design/layout/fine wok when you don't feel like it - not so good).
He obviously has influence (Krenov) and with his influence comes his furniture. Way different than someone like sellers or cosman (even though I think if Krenov hadn't written, none of us would have a clue who he was) - when anyone thinks of sellers or cosman, is there a trademark-ish design that comes to mind (I mean like a whole piece of original furniture that appears in various iterations - not just rows and rows of dovetails, etc).
What's curious, and this was just a side comment - is that the permanent residency for krenov came far later in life than it did for frid (and I don't know that much about alan peters - he's only referenced over here because Cosman put him in a video. In furniture circles, he's probably more well known).
In the context most people refer to (with krenov - doing most of the work by machines), I think that's perfectly fine.
Actually, after reading more about krenov today (never read much about him because the furniture designs themselves aren't very appealing to me), I admire him to a great extent outside of that - working seemingly for himself and not just going with the flow in the time period, and suggesting (against the grain apparently) that beginning woodworkers are missing out on something if they are introduced entirely to power tools early on.
So you walk about liking everything, and dont have an actual opinion of your own ? You feel you cant say 'I dont like that'
Sure we can appreciate the work that has went into something. I find that piece anemic.
I cannot let that pass without serious correction!! (Sorry Devmeister - It seems that I am attracted to your errors )Stradivarius is famous for his violins yet he never worked to a dimensional system. Metric for example didn’t show up til 400 years after his death. He used something called an arhchitype. A set of rules for working with geometric figures. No wonder there are no curve/staight line violations in his designs.
I've got autism. Are you attacking me because of that ?.If you look back I said that I found the cabinet that is the subject of this discussion shouty and not my cup of tea. How's that for an opinion. And no I don't say that everything from a maker is excellent. What I do appreciate is the philosophy that different makers apply. For example Kernov refused to make chairs, on the basis that all good chairs had already been designed. Whereas some makers embrace the chair, like another recently dead maker David Savage. Google David Savage Chair and look at the images.
Well i dont think that really detracts or means anything specifically. I worked with a bloke who turned out lovely furniture and only had 3 not too sharp chisels and a Chinese specials plane. We used machines for the majority of the work pretty much like most makers. But all his hand work was done on cheap tools.
I've got autism. Are you attacking me because of that ?.
Was wondering what you'd think of that.
Quite like marmite but I kinda like it... well for the most part.
I've got autism. Are you attacking me because of that ?.
No obviously not, but can you see how saying im picking on a dead furniture designer just because he's dead, rather than i find that individual piece of work to be horrible to my eyes.
And nobody is getting shouty. In forum terms THIS IS GETTING SHOUTY I and others if anything are being judgemental, and as designers and makers thats perfectly normal.
Are you his minder or something ?
I dont need to google D.Savage, im well aware of his work.
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