Has anyone made or used one of the Roubo style frame saws? Thinking of making one myself and wondered whether anyone in the UK is making the hardward and blades for them. Blades are up to 48 inches long and 4 inches wide! have a look on YT for great videos of them being used to re-saw various woods including oak. They even make a plane to pre-cut the kerf on all faces to aid in straight cutting. Sorry to hijack your post but it is relevant to what you asked.
rip-cutting seasoned oak?
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Nelsun":3igh2jd3 said:
That's where I got mine too, it arrived at my door (Fife) in less than 48 hours.
@binks : interesting that you and i ended up with the same questions re the Roubo. seems there's quite a lot of controversy about them and a fairly spirited debate among re-creationists. to me the Roubo is a souped-up version of a traditional frame European saw and i've always been rather fond of them.
if i was working larger pieces i might be thinking of a Roubo too but for now a good-sized frame saw with a proper hardwood ripping blade -- assuming such a thing exists -- would be my weapon of choice.
if you're feeling particularly ambitious you might consider making your own blade for the Roubo. i found this Youtube video where the guy cuts his own frame saw blade quite inspirational: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVWSBEx7Hto
also, check out the RenaissanceWW on the 'tube for vids of his scratchbuilt Roubo in action. looks tricky but a beautiful thing at work in skilled hands .
more on doing a Roubo, a smaller version here but built from scratch. very tempting!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIa846twvCo
key point here (for me) is that he's just using a segment of band saw blade for the frame saw. i wondered about that, quick price check shows that it could be a very economical source for frame saw blades (over time) and at no more initial expense than a good frame saw blade would run.
must admit, i sense a future project coming on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIa846twvCo
key point here (for me) is that he's just using a segment of band saw blade for the frame saw. i wondered about that, quick price check shows that it could be a very economical source for frame saw blades (over time) and at no more initial expense than a good frame saw blade would run.
must admit, i sense a future project coming on.
Late to this, but I may be one of the few people left who does most of their ripping by hand, no matter what the wood is.
If you're dealing with interlocking grain, you still want a rip saw, but you may benefit from one with smaller teeth than a typical 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 point rip saw.
Combination hardtooth saws cut at a fraction of the speed of any rip saw that's not eased past the point of usefulness, and they don't track straight for a simple reason - they rasp in the cut instead of severing fibers, at least for a large portion of the energy you're using.
I keep two types of rip saws - one is 3 1/2 to 6 point type (I could get by with one on each end of that range, but I probably have about 5 in good working shape, because they were cheap), the other end is a converted crosscut saw at 8 points for things like purpleheart. Still filed rip. There is a happy medium between skidding due to too relaxed of a rake or too many teeth, and sticking in the cut and being very hard to use (an aggressive rip saw that works well in cherry may be very uncomfortable to use in interlocking oak or ash).
How practical is it to take any of this advice and use it right away on wood that's pretty gnarly to rip? I don't know. Would I rip that with a hard point saw? I wouldn't. Would I have reservation about ripping it with a low tooth count circular saw? No.
it's very enjoyable to do this kind of work when your hand tool is matched to the wood being sawn, though - unless you're on a clock trying to get a completed project in three hours.
(by the way, a finer toothed purpose made rip saw is often better than converting a crosscut saw as the crosscut saws often have a thinner plate than rip saws to prevent buckling, etc).
If you're dealing with interlocking grain, you still want a rip saw, but you may benefit from one with smaller teeth than a typical 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 point rip saw.
Combination hardtooth saws cut at a fraction of the speed of any rip saw that's not eased past the point of usefulness, and they don't track straight for a simple reason - they rasp in the cut instead of severing fibers, at least for a large portion of the energy you're using.
I keep two types of rip saws - one is 3 1/2 to 6 point type (I could get by with one on each end of that range, but I probably have about 5 in good working shape, because they were cheap), the other end is a converted crosscut saw at 8 points for things like purpleheart. Still filed rip. There is a happy medium between skidding due to too relaxed of a rake or too many teeth, and sticking in the cut and being very hard to use (an aggressive rip saw that works well in cherry may be very uncomfortable to use in interlocking oak or ash).
How practical is it to take any of this advice and use it right away on wood that's pretty gnarly to rip? I don't know. Would I rip that with a hard point saw? I wouldn't. Would I have reservation about ripping it with a low tooth count circular saw? No.
it's very enjoyable to do this kind of work when your hand tool is matched to the wood being sawn, though - unless you're on a clock trying to get a completed project in three hours.
(by the way, a finer toothed purpose made rip saw is often better than converting a crosscut saw as the crosscut saws often have a thinner plate than rip saws to prevent buckling, etc).
Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
Where in Fife are you. I'm toodling through over the weekend and happy to drop off one of my large Disston D8 type ripsaws for you to try out. I'll be going up by the Bow and then heading over to Stirling. So if you're about that route, let me know
D_W":4hawmbdk said:
many thanks for your post D_W, informative and encouraging. i have a question if i may: my understanding is that a "proper" rip-cut saw has chisel-shaped points on the teeth -- flat across the points, more or less square edged -- as opposed to pointy knife-like teeth of a combination or cross-cut saw. is that a fair summary of the basics?
amongoaks":3mutk92h said:
Like droogs says, yes on the chisel idea. If you chisel off the end of a board at 30 degrees or so, each tooth is doing that, severing fibers and pushing them off.
On a crosscut saw, the teeth are slicing fibers more than severing and pushing. Slicing vertical fibers is like cutting an end grain cutting board. More rasping than cutting and you end up beating up fibers (doing the physical work to do that) that would've been severed and long pushed off by a rip saw.
The larger the teeth, the bigger the difference in operation between the two. Which can be interpreted also that there are places where you might like to cross cut with a rip saw when the size of the wood and the teeth matched well. Stuff like cutting off a bench top or really thick boards (12/4, 16/4) is actually easier to do (cross cutting) With a big rip saw than a crosscut saw.
i thought i might add a wee update to my results on rip-cutting my seasoned hardwoods with various hand saws. as it happens i've always been rather fond of a good bow saw and/or bucksaw -- i know, various names are used but i'm talking about the thing where a blade is tensioned by a twisted rope or wire with a toggle or keeper that rests against a middle cross bar -- and saws that primarily cut on the pull stroke.
so i got to wondering if i could do my hardwood rip-cutting with one such saw. i looked around for commercially available blades and to me they all looked like minor variations of the two panel saws i'd tried earlier in this thread. those worked but they weren't brilliant so could i get better results with something else, something i bodged together myself if needs be?
the whole point of this thread has been to find hand sawing methods to replace what one might normally do with a bandsaw so i started looking at using a chunk of bandsaw blade in a bucksaw frame. one Axminster order later and i had two bandsaw blade candidates: a 6 tpi wood cutting blade and a 10 tpi metal cutting blade. i'd seen both recommended on a forum somewhere and that was how i made my selection.
a bit of easy work with a dremel tool and Bob's Your Uncle, two new blades for my bucksaw. the results have been very interesting. i'd have to say that both have performed better than any of the other saws or blades i've tried thus far.
the metal cutting blade is quite aggressive in the dried hardwood but it really does cut rather well. i'd say it cuts an unnecessarily wide kerf though and doesn't track brilliantly. it is quite easy to get started on most cuts -- anything except cutting straight across end grain -- and as long as you keep a close eye and hand on the blade you can progress very well. better in my opinion that either the Predator or the Barracuda panel saws.
the 6 tpi blade has been something of a revelation. it's a bit cranky on starting the cut and definitely works best when you're cutting straight into the long grain but assuming that's what you're doing -- and for me that's the majority of what i want -- then wow, it really cuts nicely! nice narrow kerf, noticeably rapid progress, very little chatter and no significant tendancy to wander. and the blade mostly produces shavings instead of sawdust, they look like miniature plane shavings. i can't say i'll be cutting veneers any time soon but for breaking down the hardwood half-rounds and quarters i've got into useable project cuts i think i've found what i've been hoping for.
i've always enjoyed a bit of greenwood work and i have to say that that last setup -- 6tpi bandsaw blade in a bucksaw set to cut on the pull stroke -- is easily the best greenwood rip-cutting i have ever done by hand. i realize that's a bit far afield from where this thread started -- and cutting green wood is never that difficult -- but it's such a joy that i couldn't resist mentioning it.
so i got to wondering if i could do my hardwood rip-cutting with one such saw. i looked around for commercially available blades and to me they all looked like minor variations of the two panel saws i'd tried earlier in this thread. those worked but they weren't brilliant so could i get better results with something else, something i bodged together myself if needs be?
the whole point of this thread has been to find hand sawing methods to replace what one might normally do with a bandsaw so i started looking at using a chunk of bandsaw blade in a bucksaw frame. one Axminster order later and i had two bandsaw blade candidates: a 6 tpi wood cutting blade and a 10 tpi metal cutting blade. i'd seen both recommended on a forum somewhere and that was how i made my selection.
a bit of easy work with a dremel tool and Bob's Your Uncle, two new blades for my bucksaw. the results have been very interesting. i'd have to say that both have performed better than any of the other saws or blades i've tried thus far.
the metal cutting blade is quite aggressive in the dried hardwood but it really does cut rather well. i'd say it cuts an unnecessarily wide kerf though and doesn't track brilliantly. it is quite easy to get started on most cuts -- anything except cutting straight across end grain -- and as long as you keep a close eye and hand on the blade you can progress very well. better in my opinion that either the Predator or the Barracuda panel saws.
the 6 tpi blade has been something of a revelation. it's a bit cranky on starting the cut and definitely works best when you're cutting straight into the long grain but assuming that's what you're doing -- and for me that's the majority of what i want -- then wow, it really cuts nicely! nice narrow kerf, noticeably rapid progress, very little chatter and no significant tendancy to wander. and the blade mostly produces shavings instead of sawdust, they look like miniature plane shavings. i can't say i'll be cutting veneers any time soon but for breaking down the hardwood half-rounds and quarters i've got into useable project cuts i think i've found what i've been hoping for.
i've always enjoyed a bit of greenwood work and i have to say that that last setup -- 6tpi bandsaw blade in a bucksaw set to cut on the pull stroke -- is easily the best greenwood rip-cutting i have ever done by hand. i realize that's a bit far afield from where this thread started -- and cutting green wood is never that difficult -- but it's such a joy that i couldn't resist mentioning it.
AJB Temple
Finely figured
You said you have an electric circular saw. Why not use it as long as the oak is long enough to secure it. I work a lot with very seasoned, iron hard oak. I have a big Hilti circular saw and it goes through like butter. I think pretty much any decently powerful saw would.
AJB Temple":nx7wk15n said:
great suggestion but TBH i haven't yet got a setup that i'd be willing to try this on. securing those 1/2-round or quarters enough to go at them with a circular saw is beyond what i have on hand.
i can see doing this with the saw on rails with the wood secured below, or perhaps flipping the saw upside down into a make-shift table saw idea with the wood secured on a sled. basically i'm too cautious to just go at the sections i have with the saw unsecured. but your point is well taken, getting the circular saw involved would certainly make short work of problem.
ftr, my chunks were originally destined to be firewood so they are typically 10-14 inches long.
Tage Frid and Frank Klausz (and presumably a host of unknown Continentally trained woodworkers) would heartily approve of your findings.amongoaks":22ew1n0e said:
Frid is rather famous for insisting that a frame saw, with just one type of blade, is superior to everything else, for both ripping and crosscutting. The lesson being, presumably, that high tension trumps dedicated tooth shape. I suspect it's the difficulty in sourcing suitable blades that has held back their spread more than the subsequent rise in popularity of Japanese-style saws and the resurgence of interest in vintage American and British saws.
i certainly won't argue with tensioned blade bit, i suspect that's why i'm fond of these saws in the first place.
not sure that tooth profile is a secondary issue though. at this point i have three blades for this saw, the two bodged from band saw blades and a Bahco greenwood blade that i bought years ago. lately i've been trying these on all sorts of stuff in my garage shop, swapping blades freely on everything from green oak to the seasoned oak rounds to some old spalted beech to bucksawing up a big beech tree that recently fell nearby. no way would i say that tooth profile is insignificant or even secondary. also using the Predator and Barracuda described up-thread. oh, and a Japanese double-sided (softwood) Ryoba saw as well.
each of the blades behave differently, as you would expect, and some blades are definitely better at certain jobs. in no particular order:
- bucking up the green fallen beech: the Bahco greenwood blade easily the best. The Ryoba cross-cut side is brilliant here as well. the Barracuda was also good.
- ripping the cuttings from that fallen beech: easily the bodged 6tpi bandsaw blade is best. Ryoba rip-side very good as well.
- ripping green oak: same as above, no surprise. cutting green wood doesn't vary much from one species to another IMO. interesting note: the panel saws were terrible on greenwood ripping (sloppy kerf, clogging, ragged finish, etc).
- ripping the seasoned oak rounds: the blades bodged from bandsaw blades would be my preference. 6tpi first, the 10tpi a reasonable second. both considerably better IMO than the panel saws. the Predator was okay, got the job done but it wasn't pretty and not much fun (a lot of chatter).
- the spalted beech: this was a tough one, especially ripping. perhaps because the spalting has somewhat broken down the grain? the Ryoba was probably the best here. the bodged blades were a bit better than the others but none performed especially well. not sure what to make of that.
given the shear versatility of the Ryoba -- crosscut on one side, ripcut on the other -- i would very much like to try a hardwood version on some of these cutting jobs. someday soon i hope.
so my take-away from this is "try things" and go with what works best. amazing insight, i know.
i'm not finding there to be any "this is better for everything" candidates here, nor did i ever expect there would be.
not sure that tooth profile is a secondary issue though. at this point i have three blades for this saw, the two bodged from band saw blades and a Bahco greenwood blade that i bought years ago. lately i've been trying these on all sorts of stuff in my garage shop, swapping blades freely on everything from green oak to the seasoned oak rounds to some old spalted beech to bucksawing up a big beech tree that recently fell nearby. no way would i say that tooth profile is insignificant or even secondary. also using the Predator and Barracuda described up-thread. oh, and a Japanese double-sided (softwood) Ryoba saw as well.
each of the blades behave differently, as you would expect, and some blades are definitely better at certain jobs. in no particular order:
- bucking up the green fallen beech: the Bahco greenwood blade easily the best. The Ryoba cross-cut side is brilliant here as well. the Barracuda was also good.
- ripping the cuttings from that fallen beech: easily the bodged 6tpi bandsaw blade is best. Ryoba rip-side very good as well.
- ripping green oak: same as above, no surprise. cutting green wood doesn't vary much from one species to another IMO. interesting note: the panel saws were terrible on greenwood ripping (sloppy kerf, clogging, ragged finish, etc).
- ripping the seasoned oak rounds: the blades bodged from bandsaw blades would be my preference. 6tpi first, the 10tpi a reasonable second. both considerably better IMO than the panel saws. the Predator was okay, got the job done but it wasn't pretty and not much fun (a lot of chatter).
- the spalted beech: this was a tough one, especially ripping. perhaps because the spalting has somewhat broken down the grain? the Ryoba was probably the best here. the bodged blades were a bit better than the others but none performed especially well. not sure what to make of that.
given the shear versatility of the Ryoba -- crosscut on one side, ripcut on the other -- i would very much like to try a hardwood version on some of these cutting jobs. someday soon i hope.
so my take-away from this is "try things" and go with what works best. amazing insight, i know.
i'm not finding there to be any "this is better for everything" candidates here, nor did i ever expect there would be.
