Richard Raffan Demo

[Blister]

Hi People

Yesterday was the Richard Raffan demo at Fairlop Woodturners Club

I arrived at 9.50 for the 10am start all excited , had really looked forward to this for some time :lol:

The demo started prompt at 10 and Richard started turning a bowl , all was well for a short while the he had a catch , explained it was careless removal of the turning tool , Then he said he was unable to Finnish the bottom of the bowl as he didn't have a long enough gouge and also said he does not use a bowl gouge all the way down to the bottom of a bowl but changes to a round nose scraper :?

.

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Wizer arrive at 10.45 and was taking it all in

Sorry Tom couldn't resist !

We then had tea :lol:

And the second part started , Woo Wonder what we were going to learn now !

We then had a demo on how to rough down a square piece of timber to a cylinder with a roughing gouge :?

and how to do beads and coves :?

followed by demonstrations on how to use a skew complete with dig in's :?

Time for lunch , full spread of food salmon , salad and desert

Back to the demo , Richard was going to make a box and proceeded to pass round 3 boxes the he had made previously

.

The 3 boxes that were passed around all had lids that did not fit correctly :?:
All way to lose and falling off , no nice snug fit

We also had Simon Hope and Nick Arnull in attendance , not sure what they though of the day .

The one thing I did learn was a new way of turning beads with a gouge and using a walking along the tool rest type action , worked quite well and myself and Wizer both had some one on one tuition from Richard , So thanks for that

Fairlop have a " Official " photographer , Derek , fine figure of a man

Overall on the day I was disappointed as I though I was going to see something special , as I have done in the past seeing other top rated turners , but hay Ho I did get a photo with Richard to add to my collection , others include Liam Flynn , Ciarán Forbes , Glenn Lucas , Simon Hope , Nick Arnull , and not forgetting The world renowned Eugene Malone
( Boysie39 )

Maybe Richard had a off day or was suffering jet lag ?

I left 45 minutes early ( Dinner appointment ) , Tried to photograph some of the clubs turnings just before I left but most had been put away

 

[Lightweeder]

Hmm. Fairflop then :? I'm gutted, as he's my hero.

 

[wizer]

Yes it wasn't exactly a polished performance. But it was still nice to meet the guy. Blister and I learned at least one new technique.

Richard's approach is very much along the lines of 'use what ever tool or technique that gets the job done' As such he doesn't obsess about the finer tool techniques, using just the processes he's used for 30+ yrs. I was a little surprised that he uses a beeswax finish for items that will get used. But his opinion is that a finish is something you replace regularly.

Was good to meet Nick Arnull and have a look at Simon Hope's tools.

 

[wizer]

Hmm. Fairflop then :? I'm gutted, as he's my hero.

At the end Richard told how difficult it is to deal with clubs, but Fairlop was pretty easy going. It sounds like he's up for doing much more demos while he's in this country. Maybe your local club could contact him for next year?

But his demo is very basic and whilst he's a lovely man, Blister and I were left wondering if we'd got value for our money.

 

[boysie39]

I was very dissapointed to have missed him when he was in Ireland last year as I was hospitilised.

Having read the reviews from Allen and Tom I am supprised that a man of his calibre could not cope with hollowing out a bowl and making an excuse of not having a tool long enough. Surly a man of his standing in the turning world could have improvised as we the ordinary punters would try to do. I'm sure the company who are selling tools with his name emblazoned on them for extra amounts of cash will not be too impressed.

I'm sure he was getting well paid for his time and for no other reason than professional pride he should have made an effort. I dont know how many other people besides Tom and Allen would have felt the same feeling of been let down.

In my short time at woodturning I have been to quite a few Demo's by Pro turners who could not command the fee that RR canbut could make a Bowl as good if not better than his best or anything for that matter who will have to suffer because he on the Pedestal could not bother his A'#'e to provide value for money.

A question how many of the Pro's on here would make an excuse that you had not got the equipment to hollow out a bowl. Would you not make the Bowl size to suit your equipment.

Sorry for going off on one but that smacks to me of I'm the Great one so anything will do
REgards Boysie

 

[Nick Arnull]

Guys,
I find your comments unfair and cannot agree. I can however empthize with Richard when traveling you have to work with what is supplied and work around it. ie:Timber chucks etc...Luggage restrictions are making things harder for traveling demonstrators.

The bowl he produced was done to a good standard for a demo and was explained clearly and without confussion it is after all some of what he has produced throughout his career.

If I had one comment about the day, it was that the critique went on for to long.

My wife and I enjoyed the day.

Boysie39 was "Not at the demo" and his comments are both slanderous if not libelous and I would encourage you to think very carefully before making such malicious comments.
These comment are also hurtfull to the club organising the event.
Nick & Jane Arnull.

 

[wizer]

Yes I missed Boysie's reply here. I think you got the wrong end of the stick somewhat Eugene. I think Richard's approach is just much more laid back than, for example, Eli Avisera (Whom we've seen twice at Fairlop and was a massive hit). His attitude is based around production turning, which probably appealed to less than 2% of the audience. Tho saying that, I always find it interesting to see methods employed in batch production. You also got an insight into his 30+yrs in the business. As I said in my original post, it was great to meet him, I have all his dvd's and books and I found him very approachable. But a club like Fairlop is used to seeing much more technical demonstrations and Richard probably pitched his demo too low. I still enjoyed the day and I'd encourage you to go see him if he's local.

I'd agree with Nick (and Jane?) that the critique went on for rather too long. But this was probably a combination of Richard wanting to appease everyone and one particular club member (albeit a highly skilled one) who had filled the table with about a dozen items!!

We're back there tomorrow night to see Simon Hope.

 

[Blister]

Guys,
I find your comments unfair and cannot agree. I can however empthize with Richard when traveling you have to work with what is supplied and work around it. ie:Timber chucks etc...Luggage restrictions are making things harder for traveling demonstrators.

The bowl he produced was done to a good standard for a demo and was explained clearly and without confussion it is after all some of what he has produced throughout his career.

If I had one comment about the day, it was that the critique went on for to long.

My wife and I enjoyed the day.

Boysie39 was "Not at the demo" and his comments are both slanderous if not libelous and I would encourage you to think very carefully before making such malicious comments.
These comment are also hurtfull to the club organising the event.
Nick & Jane Arnull.

Nick

I was not being unfair in my comments , I have seen you / Simon Hope ( Several Times ) , Eli Avisera , Ciarán Forbes , Liam Flynn , Glenn Lucas , all highly rated turners and had a very enjoyable time , came away inspired from all of these demos , but when sitting watching a 4 x 4 piece of timber being rough down with a spindle roughing gouge and then basic beads and coves and skew cuts , I felt like I was sitting at a first timers demo along with other sitting around me . . I will stand by my comments that I was disappointed after looking forward to this for months

And I did also say Maybe Richard had a off day or was suffering jet lag

I am going again tomorrow to see Simon Hope Again , Really looking forward to it

 

[boysie39]

Hi to all, well I seem to have thread on some toes with my comments and true I was not at the demonstration and reacted to what I had read by people who were there.

If someone remarks that he was dissapointed that it was nothing special and someone else says it was not a polished performance and the demo was very basic what is one to think.Are the people who are paying for what could be a lifetime dream just to grin and beare it I dont think so if you pay for the best the best should be produced.If you book Mr Raffin for a demo you are sent a list of what he wants regarding lathe timber and whatever else he needs if you can not supply he dont come ,I believe this is how he works.

Mr Arnull I was not expecting a reply from you if I had been I could have guessed what it would have been you dont critiscise your fellow Pro's. I believe you may be in my part of the world in the near future perhaps we can have a chat and sort out these terrible things I said about RR.

Oh by the way I sent you a PM on the 3rd June to find out where I can buy your DVD it's still in my outbox.

 

[Steve Blackdog]

I'd be interested to see Richard R give a demo, largely because he appears from his books to be such a good teacher. I think we should be cautious about being critical of the performance of others.

I have never achieved a sufficiently high standard in anything I've done to be able to write a book. I have the greatest respect for anyone who has.

 

[mark sanger]

Hi all

I have been reading this with interest. As someone who started demonstrating last year I am always after feedback and watching other turners demonstrate to see how they do it.

It is fare to say that we all do it differently and may appeal to a certain sector of the turning fraternity perhaps more than another at a particular place.

I obviously can not comment on Richard Raffan's demo as I was not there. He was one of the turners, through books that I learnt to turn from many years ago.

It is very difficult at times at demo's especially if you know as the demonstrator that it may be going wrong. I for one have had things fly off of the lathe, but thankfully managed to recover and finish. It happens.

One thing I do feel is important as a demonstrator and club organiser is to clarify from the beginning what they would like to see demonstrated, and what the make up of the club is.

I recently demonstrated at a club where most of the members do not even own a lathe but wanted to learn to turn. So the demo was tailored to suit this.

I like to make sure that the business side of things is squared away well before the demo so every one knows what is going on.

I always ask at the beginning of the demo if there are any beginners present so that if there are I can include some basic knowledge of tooling etc. While still making a fairly complexed project.


I do believe thought that we can all do our bit as demonstrators and organisers to clarify the demo and arrange the format of the day.

This to me coming from my last job is second nature to me as is giving handouts covering the demo. Preparation prevents xxxx poor performance. In yet it still can go wrong.

So working from both sides of the fence is important. If I was going to a demo I would want to know what has been arrange to been shown.

Just my thoughts.

 

[wizer]

Hi Mark. I think that perhaps you are right. Maybe Richard was ill-prepared and/or had an off day. To add contrast and perspective to this thread, the majority of the members enjoyed the demo.

The Simon Hope demo tonight was brilliant. Simon is a Turner who I had heard of but not seen him turn or his work. Very Impressed.

 

[boysie39]

Mark, I have read your post and must say that I am pleased that you approach a Demo in this fashion. It is a sound basis for a good day for everyone attending.That is how it should be.Everyone knows what to expect.
Having seen your work displayed here I would look fwd. to it I am also looking fwd. to Nick's demo's over here. I have never been to one of his but have it from other people who have that he is an excellent turner and Demonstrator some of those people are well known pro's here.
The first DVD's on turning that I bought were by RR made in 1993 for Fine Woodworking in US. I think they are fantastic.I also have his books one which he signed for me in my absence. However could either of you fine Turners command the kind of fee that he can,and if you do would you be happy with the criticism (albeit in my case word of mouth ) that was expressed by people that attended.
I was at a Demo by Liam O'Neill where he was making a box and by inserting a collar he kept a perfect match of the grain.After two failed attempts he looked down at the 40 of us and said Lads prepare yourselves for a long day because I will get this right if I have to stay all "night" he is Irish
The point I was trying to make in my first post was being who he is I would expect him for his own pride an reputation to put on the best Demo you would see after all he is RR.
PS if he comes to Ireland again I will be first in the Q. REgards Boysie

 

[DaveL]

The Simon Hope demo tonight was brilliant.

Any pictures? I have met Simon, he is a very nice chap, I have bought stuff from him but never seen him turn. :roll:

 

[wizer]

'fraid not Dave. I was right at the back and as no one else was taking photos, I didn't either.

He made a really interesting Oak Ebonised box with a Aluminium threaded insert.

It was an evening demo and these are always a bit rushed. But very impressed with his work and indeed the products he makes, such as his sanding arbour, tool handles and the threaded inserts for boxes, amongst other items.

If you ever get the opportunity to go see him, do.

 

[mark sanger]

Mark, I have read your post and must say that I am pleased that you approach a Demo in this fashion. It is a sound basis for a good day for everyone attending.That is how it should be.Everyone knows what to expect.
Having seen your work displayed here I would look fwd. to it I am also looking fwd. to Nick's demo's over here. I have never been to one of his but have it from other people who have that he is an excellent turner and Demonstrator some of those people are well known pro's here.
The first DVD's on turning that I bought were by RR made in 1993 for Fine Woodworking in US. I think they are fantastic.I also have his books one which he signed for me in my absence. However could either of you fine Turners command the kind of fee that he can,and if you do would you be happy with the criticism (albeit in my case word of mouth ) that was expressed by people that attended.
I was at a Demo by Liam O'Neill where he was making a box and by inserting a collar he kept a perfect match of the grain.After two failed attempts he looked down at the 40 of us and said Lads prepare yourselves for a long day because I will get this right if I have to stay all "night" he is Irish
The point I was trying to make in my first post was being who he is I would expect him for his own pride an reputation to put on the best Demo you would see after all he is RR.
PS if he comes to Ireland again I will be first in the Q. REgards Boysie

Boysie

Thank you for your reply.

Hopeful one day I will get invited to Ireland to demo as it is a country I have always wanted to visit as people I know who have gone say it is beautiful.

I do not know what Richard Raffan charges. But I guess I would not get the same fee's.

Speaking for myself I believe listening to criticism is an important part of building any skill/business. In my last job we were taught in training to self access after everything we dealt with. This would have to be written down detailing how we thought it went. This had to include our own criticism and ways that we thought the item could be bettered.

This I also do with every piece of work I make. There are always points to refine.

Now I want to make clear that I do not in any way think that I am perfect nor do I get it right all the time. But what I do do now when going to demo's is have several back up plans. IE several roughed out forms ready to be picked up and put on the lathe in case the first goes wrong. I have found that this take the pressure off as only relying on one piece means you have to get it right and as you have said even the best struggle from time to time, we all struggle and get it wrong that is the nature of a skilled craft.

I posted a "Point of View letter" in woodturning last year about how the turning community needs to drag itself out of antiquity and up its game.

I was amazed when I started demonstrating to find that no one else to the best of my knowledge gives out hand on/ aide memoir packs covering the demo, as I have already mentioned. This to me is a must. If ou go to any lecture/demo in any other business you will get hand on packs detailing the salient points on the subject matter.

It has been shown through science that the human mind can only concentrate fully for up to 45 minutes before it starts switching off. So how can we expect people to watch a 2 hr or an all day demo and remember what and how to do things without hand on packs.

A demo should enable the viewer to take away some of the skills and apply them, and in my view be able to make the project, subject to their skill level.

I know we in the turning community have many friends that we are competing against when we demo. After all it is a business and we are selling a product/service by way of demonstrating. The way I see it is I have to give the best value for money that I can and just because I or another may be well established does not negate this professional approach and attention to detail thus making sure that the viewers/customers get what they want.

( I am not referring to Richard directly here but giving my method of working and the way I feel it should be done)

In any other business if you are not up to speed then you go bust.

The woodturning scene is great to be involved in but I for one would like to see people doing much more and on occasions giving better value for money. I have heard on several occasions from clubs about a turner that they would not have back as the demo was poor. This I find it sad as I know how hard it is to make money turning and with good self critique and by listening to the people who have watch and taking stuff on the chin has to be part of this.

Anyway I have waffled enough.

Happy turning

 

[wizer]

Anyway I have waffled enough.

You wouldn't be Mark Sanger if you didn't waffle Actually I really like the idea of hand outs. I'm yet to see it from demonstrators. It's interesting what you say about how much the brain takes in. On Sunday at least two gents in the audience fell asleep after lunch :lol: But to be fair I found myself 'dipping' late in the afternoon. Not much you can do about that.

Mark I hope we get to see you at Fairlop one day, I'd really like to see you demo. I have said it before here, but Fairlop is a great club with many diverse and skilled members. Everytime I attend, I return with something new to add to my turning. Between Allen and the rest of the group, I've picked up about 80% of my turning skills.

I hear what you are saying about negative comments. But we can't moderate free speech, can we? As long as people are not fabricating the truth. If people didn't like what they saw then they should be allowed to talk about it. I don't believe in that saying about a negative reaction will be shouted about louder. I'm much more enthusiastic about things that impress me and will tell more people. I wouldn't want to see a turners livelihood damaged, but perhaps some turners were not cut out to demonstrate. It's important for turners to be constantly revising and upping their game. Self review is vital. It's your business. Even if you've been in the game for a long time. It's easy to just get offended, but I'd hope in this situation the turner would take time to figure out why those negative comments were expressed and whether they could have done anything to alter their performance.

As I said in my last post. The majority of members enjoyed the RR demo and whatever has been said here, I seriously doubt it would damage RR reputation. It's the reaction of those who were not there that may have offended or upset.

 

[tekno.mage]

I've not seen Richard Raffan demonstrate "in the flesh", but have got most of his books and DVDs which I've found to be most useful. I would definitely be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the demo you saw - someone suggested jet-lag - and this can affect some people quite badly.

The turning club I attend have on occassion re-booked professional demonstrators we were particularly impressed with "first time around" - sometimes this is very successful, particularly if the demonstrator makes an effort (most do) to demonstrate a different type of project on subsequent visits.

On a couple of occasions it has not worked out so well and we were rather disappointed with the second demonstration - either the demonstrator had several projects "go wrong", or they failed to bring vital equipment (or suitable wood!) with them. On one of these occasions the person involved was actually ill (although we didn't find out until the end of the demo).

OK - our club won't be rushing to re-book demonstrators that disappointed us in the short-term, but it certainly wouldn't stop me watching the same person at a show or other venue.

As a club, we find the amount a demonstrator charges bears little relation to how well a demonstration goes - and even at the less-good demos most people there do learn something new. As a member of the audience my heart always goes out to any demonstrator who has a project "go wrong" and when I was a complete newbie it was actually reassuring to see a professional have the occasional catch - then take it in their stride and carry on.

BTW - the second turning demo I ever saw was given by Simon Hope - and it was really excellent, even if what he was making seemed very advanced to me then.

Mark, I really like your idea of handouts at demos. I often end up scribbling notes during demos and having a handout would be so much better.

tekno.mage

 

[boysie39]

As I said in my last post. The majority of members enjoyed the RR demo and whatever has been said here, I seriously doubt it would damage RR reputation. It's the reaction of those who were not there that may have off

ended or upset.[/quote]

Not sure how to use this quote option but it's the last sentence that is in Wizer's Post that I refer to.
I would like to see this ended so this is my last post. As I was the only one who was not at the Demo who made an adverse comment about what happened on the night, may I point out that it was reports that were posted by members who were there You being one that made me comment in the first place. So if you are BUTT covering bear this in mind. I dont go out of my way to offend or upset for no reason at all least of all turnings clubs or their members or turners for that matter
Getting to the top of any proffesion is a long hard road frought with many dangers, when you reach there it's harder still to stay there. Because you are the target for many Assholes like me who want to knock you off. So if I'm wrong SORRY but I based my comments on what was posted here. I think we should close this post as enough has been said
REgards Eugene Malone aka Boysie 39.

 

[wizer]

Eugene you are over-reacting again. I was not reffering to you directly. Just suggesting that although Allen and myself may have thought the day was not good value for our money, the majority of attendees didn't agree with this. You are more than welcome to comment on what has been said in this thread, I'm not trying to suggest otherwise. But based on those that where actually there, the demo was a success. I was just posting the facts.