Restoration vs repair

[IWW]

.............If it's simply a repair job, use the strong modern product. When I repair I 'fix it good' so hopefully nobody will battle with my techniques, cos it's not gonna break again! ......

Best o luck Henniep, but I suspect a goodly number of such repairs will fail again in due course because it isn't the glue that's the problem, it's the design or construction of the chair that's the real issue. I constantly read that folks use "strong modern glues", with the implication that hide glue is less "strong". In a well-made joint, hide glue is stronger than the wood and forms as good a bond with the substrate as any synthetic glue. In fact it is "stronger" than many PVA type glues and does not "creep" so (if used according to directions!) is a better choice for any joint subject to prolonged loading. Its main failings are that it is not as convenient to use as "modern" glues (more fuss getting it ready short open times & poor joint strength if overheated or not fresh). However, it still has it's place in many aspects of woodworking. Horses for courses - I use PVA or epoxy where convenienceor other factors are important, but HG is my choice for any piece I expect to last a generation or three. As many have pointed out, its reversability is both a weakness & a strength.

Getting back to chairs, most failures on Windsor style chairs occur in the rungs or "stretchers" because they were made with little or no understanding of the purpose of the stretcher. These should put enough outward pressure on the legs so that when sat on, there is little or no extra tension on the joints (ever wondered why they're called "stretchers"?). A well-made Windsor needs no glue at all on the undercarriage and if the legs are through-tenoned into a thick seat it doesn't even need stretchers. I've sat on such chairs that were >100 years old that were as sound as a bell.

Take a good look at the next chair you have to repair and you'll most likely see that the vast majority of the joints that failed were in tension under load or subjected to severe wracking stress and the joints are simply not structurally up to the job. The actual glued area on dowels is small, & half of it is typically against end-grain. No matter what glue you use, there is a 99% chance your repairs will fail again sooner or later. I "fix" them for folks, but like Jacob, I know my efforts will most likely be in vain.....

Cheers,

 

[Stuartnicolson]

I just watched The Repair Shop and Will worked on a chair. All the joints were broken so he knocked them apart and re glued. All good I thought until I noticed he was using PVA glue. I restored a set of dining chairs made by my grandfather and re glued with hide glue, which is what was originally used. That means that my grand kid can do the same again in another 50 years.

What is the general though on the right approach, to restore (make it as original) or repair (make it serviceable)

My concern with the repair done by Will is that it is not reversible and when the joints rack again it’s likely to be the wood that fails rather than the glue.

Hi there, New member to the page.
As a full time professional restorer of mainly Georgian period furniture I would always use hide glue for regluing joints especially in chair or table frames. I find properly prepared hot glue is strongest among even the highest rated modern PVA’s & UV glues. Hide or animal glue will bind itself deep into joints & even old animal glues within joints. Imagine if any other modern glues that could be rub jointed along 5ft table edge joints with no clamping or chairs pulled together & clamps removed after 10 minutes in a chilly workshop. If animal glue was newly released on sale today it would be described as a wonder adhesive for its versatility.

 

[Just4Fun]

The only time I have ever used hide glue was quite recently to fix some antique chairs my wife inherited. I am obviously no expert but my concern was that the chairs be repairable again in the future.

 

[Yorkieguy]

Just to put the chair which is the subject of this thread into perspective, it isn't so old (1969), it's not a thing of beauty or a work if fine craftsmanship and wasn't meant to be. Neither is it a priceless heirloom. (Think 'Ikea' rather than 'Chippendale'). The chairs were mass-produced to be sat on for a single event, and 4,600 were made for the Prince of Wales's Investiture (Now King Charles), in 1969. Immediately after the ceremony the chairs were offered for sale at £12.00 each (equal to £222 in 2022). Invited guests had first refusal, with the remainder being sold to the public. Really, more of a souvenir than a piece of fine furniture for everyday use in a domestic setting.

The chairs were made from Welsh beech, stained in vermillion, (crimson red) and consisting of a plywood seat and back and a basic padded cushion. The Prince of Wales' feathers motto (Ich Dien) is indented in gilt (rather than painted) to the chair back, a successful attempt to reduce wear. The seat is padded with foam and upholstered with a simple red Welsh tweed. It was imperative that the chairs could withstand rain, and that no colour came off on the guests' clothes.

They were designed by the Earl of Snowdon (late Princess Margaret's son):

David Armstrong-Jones, 2nd Earl of Snowdon - Wikipedia.

He’s a furniture maker of some note, and his company trades as Linley’

LINLEY | Luxury British Gifts & Bespoke Furniture | davidlinley.com

The investiture faced fierce opposition from people who saw the Prince of Wales as symbolic of Wales's occupation by the English crown. Nationalist anti-English sentiment had been on the rise, particularly since 1957 when a Welsh valley was flooded to provide water for the English city of Liverpool. Charles later recalled "most days there seemed to be a demonstration going on against me" when he was studying at Aberystwyth University

In November 1967, as the Earl of Snowdon visited Cardiff to discuss arrangements for the investiture, a bomb went off.

Investiture of Charles, Prince of Wales - Wikipedia

Now that Charles is King, his elder son Prince William and his wife Kate, became Prince & Princess of Wales. They won't be having an investiture ceremony as it isn't in keeping with the times:

Why the new Prince and Princess of Wales won't have a grand investiture ceremony | ITV News

To cut to the chase, here's a picture of the chair. PVA seems fair enough to me:

 

[paulrbarnard]

Just to put the chair which is the subject of this thread into perspective, it isn't so old (1969), it's not a thing of beauty or a work if fine craftsmanship and wasn't meant to be. Neither is it a priceless heirloom. (Think 'Ikea' rather than 'Chippendale'). The chairs were mass-produced to be sat on for a single event, and 4,600 were made for the Prince of Wales's Investiture (Now King Charles), in 1969. Immediately after the ceremony the chairs were offered for sale at £12.00 each (equal to £222 in 2022). Invited guests had first refusal, with the remainder being sold to the public. Really, more of a souvenir than a piece of fine furniture for everyday use in a domestic setting.

The chairs were made from Welsh beech, stained in vermillion, (crimson red) and consisting of a plywood seat and back and a basic padded cushion. The Prince of Wales' feathers motto (Ich Dien) is indented in gilt (rather than painted) to the chair back, a successful attempt to reduce wear. The seat is padded with foam and upholstered with a simple red Welsh tweed. It was imperative that the chairs could withstand rain, and that no colour came off on the guests' clothes.

They were designed by the Earl of Snowdon (late Princess Margaret's son):

David Armstrong-Jones, 2nd Earl of Snowdon - Wikipedia.

He’s a furniture maker of some note, and his company trades as Linley’

LINLEY | Luxury British Gifts & Bespoke Furniture | davidlinley.com

The investiture faced fierce opposition from people who saw the Prince of Wales as symbolic of Wales's occupation by the English crown. Nationalist anti-English sentiment had been on the rise, particularly since 1957 when a Welsh valley was flooded to provide water for the English city of Liverpool. Charles later recalled "most days there seemed to be a demonstration going on against me" when he was studying at Aberystwyth University

In November 1967, as the Earl of Snowdon visited Cardiff to discuss arrangements for the investiture, a bomb went off.

Investiture of Charles, Prince of Wales - Wikipedia

Now that Charles is King, his elder son Prince William and his wife Kate, became Prince & Princess of Wales. They won't be having an investiture ceremony as it isn't in keeping with the times:

Why the new Prince and Princess of Wales won't have a grand investiture ceremony | ITV News

To cut to the chase, here's a picture of the chair. PVA seems fair enough to me:


View attachment 148040

That wasn’t the chair I was referring to… the thread originated before the then prince of Wales episode.

 

[Yorkieguy]

OK - sorry - got my wires crossed. I wrongly assumed it that it was, as it was a recent episode.

113 episodes are available free to watch on BBC i-player. I don't know if you could identify the episode with chair in question to give a better idea:

The Repair Shop

Though it's the practical content of the programme that interests the likes of us, if you look at the criteria on the application to submit an article for consideration, you will discover that unless it has a heart-rending, tear-jerking 'back-story' it won't stand a snowball's chance in hell of ever appearing on the programme. I'm afraid I can't cope with that aspect - I'm from a time when you 'didn't wear your heart on your sleeve', but it chimes well with the viewers, as the viewing figures show.

I also find terms such as 'cherished heirlooms' when applied to neglected, dilapidated tat to be rather over the top. If something has such a huge sentimental value, how does it get into that state? (Except perhaps a ceramic ornament damaged by accident). But then it's a hugely popular, cheap to make, light entertainment programme - not a masterclass. Every episode must end with the equivalent of a bedtime story - 'and they lived happily ever after' so that viewers feel happier at the end of the programme than the beginning. Nothing really wrong with that in these rather cheerless times, though I do find it rather mawkish, so I record it and fast forward the bits with no practical content.