Renovation to an old oak stair

[MikeJhn]

I have a very winding staircase and need to replace the not very stable handrail, how would you guys hidden fix the posts and make the turning handrail?

This staircase is three stories high, and at the winders the handrail is near vertical.

This will give you some idea of what I am up against, this is the first floor landing leading up to the second floor.

Mike

 

[No skills]

My not very helpful suggestion is..

Remove them and fix straight ones up the wall.

Is there no reinforcement that can be done to the existing handrails/posts rather than replacement?

 

[MikeJhn]

No Skills, thanks for the input.

Handrails up the wall are not an option, this is a heritage building and the handrails have to be kept on the inside.

The spindle size is quite small, drilling doweling and glueing is one option I have thought of, but the size of dowel will be very week, one option I have discussed with the preservation officer is to make the tight curves at the landing and winders a solid C shape and put a decorative penetration through, this has been accepted in principle, but is not an ideal solution and I don't particularly like the idea aesthetically.

My main problem as I see it is making a decent job of the handrail with its excessive drop and tight curve, its only 200mm between strings and drops approximately 1750mm at each winding position.

I have even thought of carving the handrail out of a tree trunk, just need to find a nice straight 300mm dia trunk.

Other thoughts have been a former 200mm in dia and high enough to bend steamed timber around, discounted that as impractical as I don't have a steamer, tried soaking strips of wood in our rainwater harvester (its 4M deep) but they split as they dried out.

All suggestions gratefully received.

Mike

 

[Jacob]

I'd look at repairing what's already there.
Work out why it's not very stable and fix it?
It's quite common with Georgian staircases with a wreathed handrail to find that a few of the balusters are iron, same size with an angled plate at each end screwed to the hand rail and stringer. Once painted you wouldn't know they were there but they get the thing firmly fixed at salient points. Get a blacksmith on the job?

If you really are going to replace it there are lots of old books on staircases which describe everything in minute detail. It can be a highly demanding process!

 

[Rob Platt]

In agreement with Jacob. First thoughts when i saw the size of the spindles and the shape was ironwork come loose. Would definitely repair not replace as it doesn't look like the sort of job to start a learning curve on.
Another way to stiffen it all is to fix the handrails to the stringer where they pass each other with a purpose made steel bracket.
all the best
rob

 

[No skills]

The odd steel replacement spindle with brackets seems a very good idea, you could veneer them if you need a stained finish, I would probably drill screw and plug the spindles to the handrail as well.
It might be a case of all the little improvements add up to a strong job. Still can't get my head round making a new handrail like that :shock:

 

[thetyreman]

ask the housing officer if it has survived this long, how will it fall down now?

 

[MikeJhn]

There is no iron work in the staircase to come loose, I could put 150mm screws through the top of the banister into the spindles and plug the holes, and skew nail the bottom of the spindle into the string, but not really a correct thing to do on a heritage building, I want this banister and railing to look correct on completion.

Mike

 

[MikeJhn]

ask the housing officer if it has survived this long, how will it fall down now?

That is not the point, the point is using the thing safely when I have finished a bottle or two.

It is not the heritage officer who is asking for this work to be done, its for my own and families safety and satisfaction.

Mike

 

[MikeJhn]

And by the by this building is a lot older than Georgian, possibly early 1400s

Mike

 

[Jacob]

There is no iron work in the staircase to come loose, I could put 150mm screws through the top of the banister into the spindles and plug the holes, and skew nail the bottom of the spindle into the string, but not really a correct thing to do on a heritage building, I want this banister and railing to look correct on completion.

Mike

Replacing it is even less "correct".
The basic rules of conservation are to do as little as necessary, always copy exactly from the original but always repair rather than replace, if possible.
The chances of you doing a skilled replacement is very low (or you wouldn't be asking on this forum!) and it can only look a lot worse.
And unless you find out why/how it has become unstable then your replacement will be unstable too.
So yes a few screws and nails, steelwork, might be the answer.

NB The staircase won't be 15C - more like less 200 years old at most, possibly quite recent (pre-war?).

PS a starting point could be to remove the plaster from the underside so you can see better how its put together.

 

[RogerS]

Repair. Without a shadow of a doubt. Love to see photos of the rest of the houses old features.

 

[MikeJhn]

The reason its loose is that all the connections are butt joints, nothing is any where near correctly joined, the heritage officer is quite happy for the banisters and spindles to be sympathetically replaced as none of the components are original in his opinion, access to the upper floors would have been by ladder originally.

The photo's I have posted show the best of the staircase, the remaining section of banister and spindles are in diabolical condition (crumble to the touch) and there is no chance of conserving them, they will have to be replaced.

Mike

 

[PAC1]

The handrail could be made by laminating. You would need to make a former replicating the shape of the line of the handrail and then make strips of wood say 2 or 3mm thick that are pliable enough to bend around. Glue them all together to make the shape and then make the profile of the handrail by router, rasp, spoke shave and sander. In the USA they sell handrail laminates but as your profile is little more than mop stick I would not bother and do it myself.

 

[MikeJhn]

PAC1

Thanks for a positive post, that is something I have considered, I thought about getting hold of two handrails and ripping them down alternating the cut on either to take into account the blade kerf, but as you say it is a very simple profile so oversizing and bringing back to profile with a router ect is probably the best idea.

The spindles are another matter, I had thought of doweling and joining into the strings, but trying to ensure the drilling into the string vertically is problematical, I suppose the only way is to make up a jig for a plunge router is the way to go, unless someone has a better idea.

Mike

 

[RogerS]

PAC1

Thanks for a positive post, that is something I have considered, I thought about getting hold of two handrails and ripping them down alternating the cut on either to take into account the blade kerf, but as you say it is a very simple profile so oversizing and bringing back to profile with a router ect is probably the best idea.

I'm having difficulty understanding what you're proposing there. Isn't there a twist as well as a bend in that handrail ?

The spindles are another matter, I had thought of doweling and joining into the strings, but trying to ensure the drilling into the string vertically is problematical, I suppose the only way is to make up a jig for a plunge router is the way to go, unless someone has a better idea.

Mike

I would be tempted to buy a cheap secondhand morticer. Much more controllable and able to keep a straight cut (also corners cut..no faffing about with a chisel !)

 

[MikeJhn]

There is a twist as well as the tight bend, that's why I suggested making it oversize and bringing back to profile.

How would I attach a mortiser to the string of the staircase.

Mike

 

[RogerS]

There is a twist as well as the tight bend, that's why I suggested making it oversize and bringing back to profile.

How would I attach a mortiser to the string of the staircase.

Mike

I was kind of thinking the other way about. Morticer on your benchtop - invert the string and gradually feed it through, twisting where necessary. A few might need to be hand done but I would have thought far more controllable than plunging a router bit...

 

[MikeJhn]

Roger

Please see the first post, the string is on an existing staircase.

Mike

 

[deema]

I may be off the mark, but I will suggest it anyway. I'm assuming from your description that the spindles are butt jointed to the stringer and the rail, and are now loose as the wood has struck and the nails no longer hold it fast allowing movement?

There appears to be sufficient width along the stringer to create two side rails supporting the spindles and then add fillers between the spindles to form a complete sandwich of wood all around the bottom on the spindles. This would then create a more conventional method of holding the spindles to the stringers. It could all be nailed on, and allow at anytime it to be removed without harming the original staircase if required. I would moulder the outer rails to create shadow where the two attach, hiding the join. Careful staining would make it almost impossible to determine that anything had been done.

I can't see enough of the hand rail to determine if this could also be applied to the rail, I suspect that stiffening up the bottom of the spindles will resolve most of your problems.