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TheTiddles

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I don't have any that the CSA are aware of no. My other half is a teacher and says a lot. I know 4 D&T teachers they all complain they don't get to have the kids actually do stuff. I have had modern engineers come to ask which end of a ring spanner they are supposed to use for this job as they never got to use tools while on their course. My comment about not being able to do the high falluting jobs is that half the population are below average intelligence and a 1/3 of the rest aren't smart enough to be design engineers, I know I'm not and I have a reasonable IQ.

Your suggestion of only concentrating on the high bucks, high tech jobs would leave most of the population on the bread line or cleaning someone else's toilet.

It wasn't a complaint but an observation as I see it.
I see you have the common confusion as to what an engineer is or does.

-Learning to use a spanner... 10-seconds for a toddler, less for an adult.
-Calculating the pre-stress to put on with the spanner... many hours the first time, but you get quicker.
-Determining if you need to be concerned about the pre-stress and how that affects the overall safety and performance of the entire system it’s a part of... that’s the hard bit, a good course needs to teach that, not how to use a spanner.

But as you say, maybe you aren’t smart enough to be a design engineer, perhaps you can aspire to be the “cannon fodder” you mention instead?

Personally I think everyone has their role to play in our society. If we focus on low-tech, low value manufacturing I suspect one day other countries may surpass us in terms of profitability and output when they realise it’s not hard but have a lower cost base, off the top of my head that might be places like China, India, Taiwan, etc. let me know if that ever looks like it’ll happen and I’ll be sure to let you know I was right. If we can develop a higher technology level industry utilising our superior education systems and existing expertise, we might keep the same people employed that could one day lose their jobs to the aforementioned countries.

So I’m summary, you don’t have kids, but someone has told you about them, you don’t know what an engineer is and you think some people are only good for being killed.

I’m not complaining, just observing

yours sincerely

a design engineer
 

Droogs

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No you are attempting to be insulting while being smarmy.
"Determining if you need to be concerned about the pre-stress and how that affects the overall safety and performance of the entire system it’s a part of... that’s the hard bit, a good course needs to teach that, not how to use a spanner" That's how you talk a good game but are in fact totally useless when push comes to shove and have the thing actually made or work.

But as you say, maybe you aren’t smart enough to be a design engineer, perhaps you can aspire to be the “cannon fodder”

Been there done that got the T-shirt and had a blast doing it and it's because people like me are willing to do that you get to try to be a condescending symbol of fertility when someone points out your arrogance.

as before just some observations
 

TheTiddles

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No you are attempting to be insulting while being smarmy.
"Determining if you need to be concerned about the pre-stress and how that affects the overall safety and performance of the entire system it’s a part of... that’s the hard bit, a good course needs to teach that, not how to use a spanner" That's how you talk a good game but are in fact totally useless when push comes to shove and have the thing actually made or work.

But as you say, maybe you aren’t smart enough to be a design engineer, perhaps you can aspire to be the “cannon fodder”

Been there done that got the T-shirt and had a blast doing it and it's because people like me are willing to do that you get to try to be a condescending symbol of fertility when someone points out your arrogance.

as before just some observations
When I need a floor sweeping, I will know who to ask.

edit - I have great respect for floor sweepers, see above about valuing people.
 

Alpha-Dave

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That went down hill quickly from what I intended at the start of the thread!

Please try to focus on new opportunities rather than blame for what is broken.
 

TheTiddles

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That went down hill quickly from what I intended at the start of the thread!

Please try to focus on new opportunities rather than blame for what is broken.
Yes, it’s almost like saying some peoples lives are expendable is offensive, whatever next. If someone is upset for being called out for expressing that, I am not sorry, not in the slightest.
 

AlanY

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Out of curiosity, why does anyone care if we make very simple, almost commodity items in the UK?

I’d rather we focus our expertise in the doing of the difficult and valuable, letting someone else do the rest. They employ more people and drive our societal advance far more than making things which have been substantially unchanged for heading onto a century.
Because high volume, low value manufacturing is where the jobs are, I guess. It is okay wanting to be an 'elite' but, whilst it certainly is lucrative for those employed in elitist roles (and, no doubt, gives them a great 'holier-than-thou' feeling) I cannot see that it would employ millions of people. I would much rather the innovation take place in the UK which then feeds down to UK jobs for the mass manufacture. Dyson, for example, started that way and was granted huge kudos for it. Then, whilst he kept R&D in the UK, he transferred the mass manufacturing to a low-cost labour country. When he did that, I stopped buying Dyson products.
 

AlanY

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Yes, it’s almost like saying some peoples lives are expendable is offensive, whatever next. If someone is upset for being called out for expressing that, I am not sorry, not in the slightest.
You are an odd one, Tiddles. Particularly when the above is exactly what you said in your earlier post (" I’d rather we focus our expertise in the doing of the difficult and valuable, letting someone else do the rest "). When the majority of the UK population are not in that elite bracket (and you must know that) you have effectively written those people off as somebody else's problem. Does that not mean you have decided they are expendable? I may have misunderstood what you were saying. I hope I have, because I would not like to think of you as being a hypocrite.
 

GrahamF

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The problem is that over half the population are not able to do those jobs and need something else to do until such time as we need canon fodder. That's what it all boils down to. Besides only hobbiest kinow how to manually machine stuff anymore; grow food without straving while doing it etc As the generations of kids here have not been taught any of this in any detail. Even those who have still don't get to mill, saw, drive a screw, they just sit at a screen for the most part.

I served an apprenticeship in the motor trade, at a time when we repaired rather than replaced parts. A vehicle "technician" these days seems to be stuck if his computer can't tell him what's wrong and an alternator will be changed rather than replace brushes. A friend who retired a couple of years ago as head of technology at a college told me all lathes and milling machines were computer controlled and none of the graduates would be able to cope with manual ones.
 

TheTiddles

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You are an odd one, Tiddles. Particularly when the above is exactly what you said in your earlier post (" I’d rather we focus our expertise in the doing of the difficult and valuable, letting someone else do the rest "). When the majority of the UK population are not in that elite bracket (and you must know that) you have effectively written those people off as somebody else's problem. Does that not mean you have decided they are expendable? I may have misunderstood what you were saying. I hope I have, because I would not like to think of you as being a hypocrite.
I see what you’re saying, we are going to need that person in every stage of industry and service etc... and all those people are valuable but if we focus them on assembling commodity items, they will lose their jobs eventually as we can’t compete, but the same person building the latest technology (eg green technology) has more of a chance. It would be like nationalising MG Rover, it would only postpone the inevitable.

As for being odd, yes, that’s a fair charge.
 

TheTiddles

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I served an apprenticeship in the motor trade, at a time when we repaired rather than replaced parts. A vehicle "technician" these days seems to be stuck if his computer can't tell him what's wrong and an alternator will be changed rather than replace brushes. A friend who retired a couple of years ago as head of technology at a college told me all lathes and milling machines were computer controlled and none of the graduates would be able to cope with manual ones.
Oh, I must have been in different ones, they’re all taught manual machining round here, and programming.
We’ve got an apprentice, straight out of college, do you know what he knows? Loads, he’s frighteningly good.
 

GrahamF

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Oh, I must have been in different ones, they’re all taught manual machining round here, and programming.
We’ve got an apprentice, straight out of college, do you know what he knows? Loads, he’s frighteningly good.

Mate taught in a N Wales college, evidently all equipment had been replaced with latest technology, everything manual had been sold off.
 

TheTiddles

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Mate taught in a N Wales college, evidently all equipment had been replaced with latest technology, everything manual had been sold off.
I can see a need for a single manual machine in a school as it’s a good starter, but automated machines have been a thing since the punch-card loom was invented in 1725 and very little is made entirely manually, useful though they are, hence why they still exist. Someone who is a wizard at a manual 3-axis but can’t programme a CNC is going to have a hard time getting a position these days.
 

Fergie 307

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maybe have 2 tiers
British Made - basically assembled in the UK from bits from all over
Made in Britain - all the bits inside and the final assembly created in the UK
I think a similar thing has been going on for years in advertising and labelling. If you read "made from" then the product will indeed be made from what it says. If it says "made with" then there might be a tiny particle of whatever it is, but the rest will be something else. This is the sort of thing that annoys me. No doubt we will see Union Jack stickers appearing on stuff the majority of which is made elsewhere.
 

JimmyStartrite

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You pay MIB to be a member, and you will get to use their "kitemark" as long as you sell "something" that was made here,
There are a lot of actual British manufacturers currently leaning on MIB to stop resting on its laurels and actually practice what they preach, I.E. to lobby the government for an import tax or ethics tax to push up the price of Chinese made goods so British firms can compete,
Unfortunately many politicians have made a lot of money putting their hand in China's pocket so they are happy for this to continue, in real terms if the Chinese people mobilise a few unions and demand better pay and conditions this would happen naturally, China's capitalist/communist economy wont let that happen without extreme violence, which essentially means the MIB isnt worth a wank in a wok!
 

Sachakins

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You pay MIB to be a member, and you will get to use their "kitemark" as long as you sell "something" that was made here,
There are a lot of actual British manufacturers currently leaning on MIB to stop resting on its laurels and actually practice what they preach, I.E. to lobby the government for an import tax or ethics tax to push up the price of Chinese made goods so British firms can compete,
Unfortunately many politicians have made a lot of money putting their hand in China's pocket so they are happy for this to continue, in real terms if the Chinese people mobilise a few unions and demand better pay and conditions this would happen naturally, China's capitalist/communist economy wont let that happen without extreme violence, which essentially means the MIB isnt worth a wank in a wok!
The issue with raising the import tax is that it leads to a spiraling of tit for tat duty war, meaning we are unable export as our products get too expensive after duty.

There needs to be another way found that balances the problems. What that is I don't know.
 

Noho12C

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e very simple, alm
Out of curiosity, why does anyone care if we make very simple, almost commodity items in the UK?

I’d rather we focus our expertise in the doing of the difficult and valuable, letting someone else do the rest. They employ more people and drive our societal advance far more than making things which have been substantially unchanged for heading onto a century.

To me, it's more a moral issue than product quality.

Factories in UK, EU, US have some standards (safety, salary, etc.). When in comes to China, Bengladesh, etc, safety standards and respect for their workforce aren't their top priority.
I don't want to participate anymore to this race for the lowest price, and try as much as I can to buy "local" made (incl EU/US). It costs more, is often harder to find but has been made in ethical conditions.
 
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