Record No 4 plane - space for fingers?

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softtop

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I seem to be veering into the handtool section...!

Just picked one of these up at a bootfair and have cleaned, adjusted and sharpened it up and been having a play with it.

Forgive my ignorance but this is my first go with a no 4. Up until now I have only owned a number 5, but there is no doubt that this plane takes a far finer shaving and leaves a better finish, which is exactly what I had hoped.

However, I find the gap between the handle and the adjusting knob to be too small and I'm having to put my first AND second finger along the blade to use it with any comfort. Is this normal? Or is it a Record thing?

Many thanks,

Henry
 
softtop":2t7vafp2 said:
I seem to be veering into the handtool section...!

Just picked one of these up at a bootfair and have cleaned, adjusted and sharpened it up and been having a play with it.

Forgive my ignorance but this is my first go with a no 4. Up until now I have only owned a number 5, but there is no doubt that this plane takes a far finer shaving and leaves a better finish, which is exactly what I had hoped.

However, I find the gap between the handle and the adjusting knob to be too small and I'm having to put my first AND second finger along the blade to use it with any comfort. Is this normal? Or is it a Record thing?

Many thanks,

Henry

There's no law of the universe that says a #4 will give a better surface than a #5 - the factors that give finish quality are the same on both.

It may well be that YOUR freshly tuned #4 out performs YOUR slightly less loved #5. However, having two planes means you could keep a tuned-for-stock shaping #5 alongside a tuned-for-finish #4, which is indeed the normal practice.

Moving on to comfort - yes, a #4 has less finger room than a #5, so this is normal. Your grip sounds unusual though; you either have big hands, or optimistic expectations!

BugBear
 
Thanks.

My no 5 is nice and sharp but the mouth is a lot bigger than on the 4, and perhaps that's why it's not able to take such a fine shaving?

Yes I have big hands, though I wouldn't say enormous, but with my second finger round the handle I'm catching my knuckle on the adjuster. I guess I'll just have to manage with the "strange" grip!
 
softtop":3ecyapqt said:
.

My no 5 is nice and sharp but the mouth is a lot bigger than on the 4, and perhaps that's why it's not able to take such a fine shaving?

Can you not make the mouth of your #5 smaller by sliding the frog forward?
 
I am sure I could, yes. However, I tend to use the 5 more for generally getting things in shape, so it's useful to be able to take a thicker shaving. I thought having another plane for smoothing would be useful, and for £15 seemed worth a try.

Does anyone else manage with just one plane?!?

:wink:
 
At the moment, I have just one bench plane - a Record #5 that I've had since the '70s. I can get by with just the singleton because these days, my woodwork is limited for various reasons to DIY and simple jobs.

I've a pristine Record 044C tucked away because I hope to get back to more creative stuff one day.

Oh, and the vintage Slater shoulder plane in my avatar which is just for show...
 
One plane for everything? 5 or 5 1/2 IMHO.
4 and 5 (of same make and age) identical except for the length difference which won't make much difference to the shavings. So maybe they aren't same make/age, or maybe you just have them set up differently?
What are they BTW?
Personally I wouldn't bother with mouth adjustment it's a waste of time on yer common Stanley/Bailey pattern. I have all mine with frog face dead in line with back of mouth, and leave them like that.
 
Hi I have 2 no4 planes, a record and a stanley, both 1950's. The record has a better blade, better cap iron and just takes a better shaving however I have the same problem as you with it, not enough finger room. The stanley is much more comfortable and the sole is about 1/4 an inch longer

The only thing I can sugest as regards your record is that the blade has been sharpened down a lot and therefore the adjustment wheel comes back further than it should. Measure the blade, I think they all start life at 7 1/4 inches long. If the blade is too short a longer blade might help. Having said that the blade on mine is about 7 inches long and the wheel still rubs my fingers :? .
 
The 4 is a Record, which I reckon dates from the 1950s (from my internet research) - SS model with the two-part cap iron. The 5 is a Stanley from the 1970s/80s - obviously had a hard life as it was covered in paint spalshes and scratches but I've flattened the sole and sharpened the blade to within an inch of its life. Clearly two different beasts, and I'm no expert. I was just surprised at how my hand wouldn't fit in the 4.

Jacob - I too have set the frog face dead in line with the back of the mouth, and that has led to the large difference in mouth size. Maybe I'll look for another 5 at the next 'boot and see if it's any different...

Fat Ferret - thanks that's reassuring to know as I thought it might just be me. I will measure the blade as well.

Thanks for all your input - much appreciated.
 
Fat ferret":38ko5c2z said:
The only thing I can sugest as regards your record is that the blade has been sharpened down a lot and therefore the adjustment wheel comes back further than it should.
Isn't the position of the adjustment wheel dependant on the slot in the cap iron, rather than the blade length?

xy
 
xy mosian":hz5cr5lh said:
Fat ferret":hz5cr5lh said:
The only thing I can sugest as regards your record is that the blade has been sharpened down a lot and therefore the adjustment wheel comes back further than it should.
Isn't the position of the adjustment wheel dependant on the slot in the cap iron, rather than the blade length?

xy

Yebut the position of the cap iron is dependant on the length of the blade.
 
Sorry but length of blade is irrelevant.

Length of chipbreaker/ cap iron, front edge to slot, and positioning of front edge on blade are the only factors which determine position of y lever and hence adjustment wheel.

It is quite common for chipbreakers to have been swapped around and planes varied.

The most efficient position of Y lever is roughly vertical to frog surface. If yours is way off it may indicate incorrect C/B.

David Charlesworth
 
Changing the cap iron can also significantly improve performance. A lot of people jump straight for a thicker cutting iron or change both of the irons. If the original cutter takes and holds a good edge, just bin the arched cap iron and fit a two piece (clifton) or a nice fat low profile single piece one (QS / LN etc) and get 80% of the improved performance for a fraction of the price of a blade.
 
xy mosian":338eoxqw said:
Fat ferret":338eoxqw said:
The only thing I can sugest as regards your record is that the blade has been sharpened down a lot and therefore the adjustment wheel comes back further than it should.
Isn't the position of the adjustment wheel dependant on the slot in the cap iron, rather than the blade length?

xy

Yes you are perfectly correct, had a look today, sorry, I was a numpty :oops: . Also there is no room on the cap iron to cut another slot. Will be interested if anyone comes up with a solution.
 
Fat ferret":3mm8drlw said:
xy mosian":3mm8drlw said:
Fat ferret":3mm8drlw said:
The only thing I can sugest as regards your record is that the blade has been sharpened down a lot and therefore the adjustment wheel comes back further than it should.
Isn't the position of the adjustment wheel dependant on the slot in the cap iron, rather than the blade length?

xy

Yes you are perfectly correct, had a look today, sorry, I was a numpty :oops: . Also there is no room on the cap iron to cut another slot. Will be interested if anyone comes up with a solution.

If you can manage it (self timer or friend) a photo (or two) of you holding the plane with "various" numbers of fingers might help us help you.

BugBear
 
Jacob":bqxqrr13 said:
....
Personally I wouldn't bother with mouth adjustment it's a waste of time on yer common Stanley/Bailey pattern. I have all mine with frog face dead in line with back of mouth, and leave them like that.
Apologies for replying to my own post.
But I just checked the frog thing and yes if you have it in line then the back of the mouth gives 2 to 4 mm of support to the back of the blade. Cranking it forwards and you lose that support and get chatter etc. Cranking it back is pointless. But having it back by a gnat's tess tickle would probably be the best of all worlds and a tight fit.
In other words the "adjustable" frog is just a way of reducing manufacturing costs, not intended to be adjustable at all.
 
Hi, Jacob

So you don't have a bevel on your blades?

That is the only way you could get more support to the back of the blade.


Pete
 
Jacob":1xw9hq35 said:
In other words the "adjustable" frog is just a way of reducing manufacturing costs, not intended to be adjustable at all.

You've owned Bailey planes for 2 decades, been singing their praises to anyone nearby, and you've only just noticed this? If only there were some design like Bailey, but with better blade support and frog adjustment on the market.

Anyway, to address the OP's question, I took some snaps this morning, showing a bailey #4 and #5, held in a 3 and 4 fingered grip.

bailey_4_hold.jpg


bailey_5_hold.jpg


In case the OP has larger hands than me, I took this check shot:

hand_hold.jpg


Only in the case of a four fingered grip (which I never use) on the #4 did my index finger foul, and then on the rear of the frog not the adjuster.

BugBear
 
How about making yourself a new tote, that way you could design it to better fit your hand & give more clearance.
I made mine a more upright design & it makes quite a difference.


Cheers.
 
Hi Bugbear,

Thanks for that - here are mine for comparison:

#5 4-fingered (never hold it like this, but it is possible):
plane01.jpg


#5 3-fingered (usual grip):
plane02.jpg


#4 3-fingered (note 2nd knuckle pressed against adjuster):
plane03.jpg


#4 from the other side:
plane05.jpg


#4 2-fingered grip (my solution for comfort, if not style!):
plane04.jpg


And finally my hand:
plane07.jpg


Not vastly different from yours I'd say... so why the problem?!?

Thanks.
 
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