Read this on dust No more woodwork for me till it's sorted.

[graduate_owner]

Hi everyone.
I've just been reading some very interesting, and very disturbing, articles on dust extraction. Here's the link

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

I thought my dust extraction was just about OK, but nothing special. After reading this I think I'm very much in cloud cuckoo land in thinking the dust problem is solved. The way manufacturers rate their equipment - cubic feet per minute and filtration down to xyz microns is a bit suspect according to this guy and it has made me decide to do the job properly once and for all before I do any more woodworking or turning. The main issue will be exhausting the dust outside instead of recycling it, and that's what I'm going to do.

Have a read - it's worth it.

K

 

[Dangermouse]

Long winded, over complicated, OCD and commercially biased.

 

[graduate_owner]

But is it accurate - if so then it raises some serious issues? (By the way what's OCD stand for?).

Anyhow it has made me think much more seriously about the whole issue, so that's a good thing, and I am determined to sort it out. I have been sweeping up the floor regularly (not a good idea it seems) and putting up with piles of sawdust under my table saw (despite the dust extractor being fitted). There is obviously a problem in my workshop, and I'm not happy about it. I'm not sure that sticking a Y piece and a couple of blast gates in a 4" pipe is the complete solution.

My initial proposal is to vent all my sawing and sanding extraction to the outside, except my bandsaw. That will keep the air flow from being reduced by the filter bags. My Axminster planer/thicknesser produces a great deal of chips but not much fine dust, not like sanding, so I'm leaving that system intact for the moment. It's connected to a Kity extractor. My band saw has a small dust outlet, about 2" diameter and is currently linked to a domestic vacuum. I'm not sure how best to deal with that yet.

K

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Obsessive compulsive disorder

 

[wizard]

When the sawdust gets a foot deep i get the shovel out, and i only saw wood i like the smell of.

 

[graduate_owner]

Yes Wizard, but there's also the dust you can't shovel out because it's so fine you can't see it.

I'm not trying to tell people how to organise their workshops, just raising an awareness issue because it seems you can't necessarily rely on the figures provided by equipment manufacturers.

Happy shovelling.

K

 

[bugbear]

Hi everyone.
I've just been reading some very interesting, and very disturbing, articles on dust extraction. Here's the link

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

I thought my dust extraction was just about OK, but nothing special. After reading this I think I'm very much in cloud cuckoo land in thinking the dust problem is solved. The way manufacturers rate their equipment - cubic feet per minute and filtration down to xyz microns is a bit suspect according to this guy and it has made me decide to do the job properly once and for all before I do any more woodworking or turning. The main issue will be exhausting the dust outside instead of recycling it, and that's what I'm going to do.

Have a read - it's worth it.

K

He defines a problem no-one (in practise) seems to suffer AND is selling the solution.

Alarm bells for me, and not about dust.

BugBear

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

What all you woodies should know is a "secret" from the marketing and sales industries. It's known as the F.U.D. factor or fear, uncertainty, doubt. The process is a simple hurt/rescue. The selling entity (person, website, advert etc) describes a problem and aims the message to heighten the potential purchasers FUD factor. That renders the purchaser in a heightened state of readiness to have a solution come along and nest beautifully in their wallet!

I'm afraid it's just a classic mind game. Where are the real statistics of respiratory illness that are verifiable fact? Of course there are risks to dust (duh). Precautions should of course be taken. Are people dropping like flies as basically suggested in his sales pitch? I've known one example of a Chippy getting a lung infection after a lot of close up mdf cutting. Amazingly....he got better! I daresay he'll wear a mask next time.

 

[Kalimna]

Just out of interest, I know that combustible dust in the correct proportions can be explosive, but has this ever really been an issue for the hobby woodworker?

Curious, is all.

Adam

 

[marcus]

I think that website is a bit over the top, but nevertheless he has a good point when he says that pretty much all the research done on woodworkers and dust has been in industrial settings where the extraction tends to be vented outside. In a small workshop with extraction inside I think you are likely to get a much bigger dose than in a bigger industrial workshop if you are not careful — which given the indisputable fact that many wood dusts come with very real and well-documented health risks is worth thinking about. Certainly I have noticed the dust much more since I have been working in a small shop with the extractor indoors. The chap who wrote that article ended up in hospital from the dust in his workshop, so a bit of overreaction on his part is maybe understandable....

I am also taking a good hard look at my extraction and filtering set up, as after several years working with a lot of oak in a small workshop I am starting to get a sensitisation to oak dust — it is getting worse over time, and I would be gutted if it meant I had to stop using it all together.... I have been improving the filters on the extractor, and have fitted air filters that are rated far higher than the recommended size for the space I am in, which has made a big difference....

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Also my understanding. Even flour milling caries the same risk apparently ie its not just wood dust but any fine particulate dust. Equally, I personally know of no examples where explosions have actually occurred. Of course that doesn't mean the risk doesn't exist but it would be interesting to hear any forum members having any first hand experience.

 

[jim_hanna]

He defines a problem no-one (in practise) seems to suffer AND is selling the solution.

Totally agree, and if I had looked at the site today I’d be very wary of somebody identifying a problem and selling the solution.

What is interesting is the length of time this site has been on the go. Pentz is an unusual name and I remember looking at it back a long time ago. A search of the posts on here shows that was in 2008 and I’d built a home made cyclone by that time. Previous posts show the site was in existence in 2005.

At that time the site looked totally non-commercial, it seemed to be just a woodworker communicating his bad experiences as a warning to others. The focus was on a low cost design you could build for next to nothing.

The whole thing could make a person very cynical, either the site was designed from the start to generate a market or it’s been taken over by commercial interests.

 

[marcus]

Totally agree, and if I had looked at the site today I’d be very wary of somebody identifying a problem and selling the solution.

I don't get it. Perhaps I'm being naive, but it doesn't look overly commercial to me — most of the pages are about building or choosing your own equipment, and it seems odd for someone who was just out to make a killing to provide full details on how to make the thing for yourself. OK, he has a link at the side of the page to a company selling cyclones to his design, and he probably gets a commission from that, but still it doesn't look particularly cut-throat to me. Still I haven't read the whole site. Am I missing something?!

 

[Togalosh]

Totally agree, and if I had looked at the site today I’d be very wary of somebody identifying a problem and selling the solution.

I don't get it. Perhaps I'm being naive, but it doesn't look overly commercial to me — most of the pages are about building or choosing your own equipment, and it seems odd for someone who was just out to make a killing to provide full details on how to make the thing for yourself. OK, he has a link at the side of the page to a company selling cyclones to his design, and he probably gets a commission from that, but still it doesn't look particularly cut-throat to me. Still I haven't read the whole site. Am I missing something?!

I agree with you Marcus - I read most of the site & got tons of free advice & was encouraged to up my game by DIYing things & not reaching for my wallet..although having said that it did cost me something to improve my set up but it's worked a treat ! If only I could get the cartridge filters he specifies & find a fan blade/impellor supplier in the UK. All the suppliers I spoke to did not want to sell me anything for wood dust collection. Plenty wanted to come round & design me an all singing n dancing system.

Thanks to Mr Penz I've improved the suction pressure at my furthest port by 50% just by swapping Ts for Ys ( not rocket science I know) & this in turn has radically improved the dust collection at my RAS - so I am more than grateful to him for sharing what he knows.

A bit of OCD goes a long way..

 

[graduate_owner]

I did read an article about a guy's workshop, in New Zealand if I remember correctly, where a build up of fine dust in the ducting (caused by inadequate air flow / speed) was ignited by a spark of some sort - can't remember how. Apparently he was lucky in that the explosion blew the ducting apart but the resulting fireball didn't ignite anything else in his shop. His advice (apart from getting good extraction) was to clean up very regularly, especially emptying dust collection bags long before they are full so as not to provide extra fuel should a mishap occur. Also to keep flammable liquids etc in a closed cupboard.

I can't find the site now. but anyone interested enough can browse for themselves.

I suppose it's a safety precaution that anyone could take, and doesn't cost anything.

Anyhow I think it's just another good reason for sorting out my dust extraction properly. I shall be using some plastic ducting for my P/T and shall run some bare copper wire inside and out to avoid electrostatic build up. It will be a trivial job while the ducting is being assembled so not worth leaving out.

BTW, does anyone know if ducting NEEDS to be round? I know it makes it easier to connect flexible hose to, but I was thinking to use plywood for one section, about 11" square. I've seen films (Dr No etc) where the hero climbs through ventilation ducts which are often square, so if it works for them... My plan was to run this rigid ducting behind my lathe, with blast gates in suitable positions that can be opened as necessary to extract from outboard or inboard or along the length of the bed (instead of re-positioning a flexible duct). I thought that the smooth insides would be better than the ridges inside the flexible stuff. I also thought to incorporate a Y piece to extract from my other lathe wirh a similar arrangement of blast gates. Finally one blast gate would allow extraction from my mitre saw through flexible pipe via a plywood square to round adaptor. All this could be shop-made, apart from the flexible ducting - which is pretty expensive in 10-12" diameter.

I wasn't, however, thinking of climbing through the square ducting to escape.

Sorry for rambling on.

K

 

[Rhossydd]

BTW, does anyone know if ducting NEEDS to be round?

My reaction would be to avoid anything other than round ducting for dust extraction. I would have thought that dust would start to collect in the corners and provide a fire risk.

I agree with marcus that the original site is not overly commercial, but just an 'enthusiast site' with only a single advert on it.

Mostly good, sound information too from what I can see. Although I think for us DIYers it's something to bare in mind rather worry excessively over. Risks of this sort tend to increase with total exposure, so occasional users should just try to avoid creating particularly hazardous situations for themselves.